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Sitting still is important for children. Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex. That doesn't mean there shouldn't

Sitting still is important for children. Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be regular activity or exercise, just that sitting still is very important.

blablabla123 10y ago
Sitting still is bad for the back. How is doing something that you don't want to do strengthening your will power? Disclaimer: I hated sitting still in class. At least in elementary, in the Gymnasium (~high school) teachers occasionally complained that I was too passive.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  There are three comments going on at once there: > Sitting still is bad for the back OK. More information on sitting still, it isn't surprising that any action has both benefits and drawbacks - I couldn't find much quantitative information for any more meaningful comparisons. > How is doing something that you don't want to do strengthening your will power willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses [2] If willpower benefits from practice (which I believe it does) then it would be through using willpower to retrain the impulses to not sit still. > teachers occasionally complained that I was too passive. Passivity is quite distinct from willpower, likely they were referring to a lack of charisma or independence. [2] https://www.google.co.uk/webhp#q=define+willpower https://www.google.co.uk/webhp#q=define+willpower
  - visarga 10y ago
    I don't think children exhibit willpower when they sit still. They might be afraid of the teacher, or being ashamed in front of other kids.
    - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
      willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses
std_throwaway 10y ago
"Why Kids Shouldn't Sit Still outside of Class"
collyw 10y ago
Have you got any evidence of that?
shiro 10y ago
I guess it depends on each child. My son is diagnosed ADHD and even when I'm teaching him 1-on-1 he keeps moving some part of his body or change his posture frequently. It bothered me before, but I learned that for him it's actually easier to work on the task. Restricting movement seems to make some part of his brain hyperfocused and in a short period of time his brain "shuts down". In his school, the classroom is a kind of free style and although he has assigned desk he can choose other places to work on his task, which seems to help him a lot. (It's Montessori, so most of the time each kid works independently according to his/her own study plan.)
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  That's exactly what I mean. Children without ADHD are able to sit still and focus at the same time, building that muscle. Managing ADHD seems to be (from my non-medical non-professional perspective) all about training and using that capacity to focus. Even for ADHD children, sitting still trains the brain, it's just that they can't stand it for very long, and there seems to be no benefit in forcing them much beyond what they feel comfortable with.
  - shiro 10y ago
    I'm not sure what source you derive from about the particularity of "sitting still". You imply that not being distracted from the given task? Or the physicality of sitting still has the benefit? (The two can be distinguished easily---if the latter is the case, "sitting still without doing anything, and just daydreaming wildly" would also have benefit.) Or you mean meditation? That's a different activity at all. In the ADHD case, it seems about the way of processing stimuli. They (or at least my kid) need a sort of synchronization stimulus (or, outside distrubance, in the way that disturbance suppresses the divergence of hypersensitive systems) to keep his mind on rail. If no such stream of stimuli is provided, he must create one by his own. I try to make him find and build his own toolset to work with. (One of the activities, for example, is tapping along metronome while doing other tasks.) [Edit] I see your comment in other thread that you refer to Zen meditation. I've learned meditation and I agree on its benefits, but it can't be applied to the current discussion of school setting---"sitting still listening lectures" and "sitting still meditating" are very different activities. The latter would certainly develop the ability of the former, but I'm dubious about just forcing the former.
maayank 10y ago
> Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex I would really love to see reference for that, no sarcasm
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  The oldest reference I know (but can't cite) is that in the 60s researchers tried to teach cats, who had EEG electrodes implanted, to change their brain waves. The cats seemed to achieve that through being extremely still. The prefrontal cortex has been linked extensively to executive functions and inhibition of motor pathways. For example inhibiting a movement in progress. Children with less developed PFCs, mainly those with ADHD have huge problems sitting still and concentrating. Even beyond ADHD, PFC development is associated with academic performance, willpower and not being aggressive. In Zen Buddhism, sitting still, "just sitting" is the primary means of training the practitioner's brain.
  - visarga 10y ago
    Zen Buddhism is voluntary, school is compulsory. You need to compare with compulsory Zen meditation. /s
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    I don't believe compulsion comes into play here. By the way, do you think that children who enter Buddhist monasteries are there voluntarily? I even doubt that novices in Japanese Zen monasteries are all that voluntary. A cultural thing, maybe. And believe me, meditation often feels coercive, even if nobody on the "outside" is forcing me. I'm forcing myself. Which is will power on a slightly larger scale than the one to restrict movement.
thomastjeffery 10y ago
Even if that is true, does that mean we should make children sit still and quiet for the better part of 7 hours a day 5 days a week? I don't think so.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  It seems to work remarkably well, though.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  On a side note: Breaks and activity are necessary. And maybe, through developing better ways to develop a strong PFC, which is crucial to a non-violent society. I do believe that compulsory schooling, and increasing rates of schooling, lowered the rates of violence somewhat. I don't have proof for that idea, unfortunately, but it is plausible just from the idea that school builds discipline or strengthens the attention network in the brain, and that this kind of strengthening has been linked to better self control and less aggression.
UhUhUhUh 10y ago
Second that. The whole learning process is about substituting cognitive action to behavioral action. Kids can handle it and do it very well. It is important, and I would say essential, to push their limits as much as possible. When I was a kid myself, the end of the school day (in a European country) could be heard block away: hordes of kids running out screaming!
nsajko 10y ago
The same argument could be used for having the kids auto-flagellate. That could be healthier, too.
jarboot 10y ago
> Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex. Got some source for that one? Any scholarly publications or anything?
Senderman 10y ago
It sounds like you're confusing will power with obedience.

blablabla123 10y ago

Sitting still is bad for the back. How is doing something that you don't want to do strengthening your will power? Disclaimer: I hated sitting still in class. At least in elementary, in the Gymnasium (~high school) teachers occasionally complained that I was too passive.

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
There are three comments going on at once there: > Sitting still is bad for the back OK. More information on sitting still, it isn't surprising that any action has both benefits and drawbacks - I couldn't find much quantitative information for any more meaningful comparisons. > How is doing something that you don't want to do strengthening your will power willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses [2] If willpower benefits from practice (which I believe it does) then it would be through using willpower to retrain the impulses to not sit still. > teachers occasionally complained that I was too passive. Passivity is quite distinct from willpower, likely they were referring to a lack of charisma or independence. [2] https://www.google.co.uk/webhp#q=define+willpower https://www.google.co.uk/webhp#q=define+willpower
- visarga 10y ago
  I don't think children exhibit willpower when they sit still. They might be afraid of the teacher, or being ashamed in front of other kids.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses

std_throwaway 10y ago

"Why Kids Shouldn't Sit Still outside of Class"

collyw 10y ago

Have you got any evidence of that?

shiro 10y ago

I guess it depends on each child. My son is diagnosed ADHD and even when I'm teaching him 1-on-1 he keeps moving some part of his body or change his posture frequently. It bothered me before, but I learned that for him it's actually easier to work on the task. Restricting movement seems to make some part of his brain hyperfocused and in a short period of time his brain "shuts down". In his school, the classroom is a kind of free style and although he has assigned desk he can choose other places to work on his task, which seems to help him a lot. (It's Montessori, so most of the time each kid works independently according to his/her own study plan.)

bayesian_horse 10y ago
That's exactly what I mean. Children without ADHD are able to sit still and focus at the same time, building that muscle. Managing ADHD seems to be (from my non-medical non-professional perspective) all about training and using that capacity to focus. Even for ADHD children, sitting still trains the brain, it's just that they can't stand it for very long, and there seems to be no benefit in forcing them much beyond what they feel comfortable with.
- shiro 10y ago
  I'm not sure what source you derive from about the particularity of "sitting still". You imply that not being distracted from the given task? Or the physicality of sitting still has the benefit? (The two can be distinguished easily---if the latter is the case, "sitting still without doing anything, and just daydreaming wildly" would also have benefit.) Or you mean meditation? That's a different activity at all. In the ADHD case, it seems about the way of processing stimuli. They (or at least my kid) need a sort of synchronization stimulus (or, outside distrubance, in the way that disturbance suppresses the divergence of hypersensitive systems) to keep his mind on rail. If no such stream of stimuli is provided, he must create one by his own. I try to make him find and build his own toolset to work with. (One of the activities, for example, is tapping along metronome while doing other tasks.) [Edit] I see your comment in other thread that you refer to Zen meditation. I've learned meditation and I agree on its benefits, but it can't be applied to the current discussion of school setting---"sitting still listening lectures" and "sitting still meditating" are very different activities. The latter would certainly develop the ability of the former, but I'm dubious about just forcing the former.

maayank 10y ago

> Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex I would really love to see reference for that, no sarcasm

bayesian_horse 10y ago
The oldest reference I know (but can't cite) is that in the 60s researchers tried to teach cats, who had EEG electrodes implanted, to change their brain waves. The cats seemed to achieve that through being extremely still. The prefrontal cortex has been linked extensively to executive functions and inhibition of motor pathways. For example inhibiting a movement in progress. Children with less developed PFCs, mainly those with ADHD have huge problems sitting still and concentrating. Even beyond ADHD, PFC development is associated with academic performance, willpower and not being aggressive. In Zen Buddhism, sitting still, "just sitting" is the primary means of training the practitioner's brain.
- visarga 10y ago
  Zen Buddhism is voluntary, school is compulsory. You need to compare with compulsory Zen meditation. /s
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  I don't believe compulsion comes into play here. By the way, do you think that children who enter Buddhist monasteries are there voluntarily? I even doubt that novices in Japanese Zen monasteries are all that voluntary. A cultural thing, maybe. And believe me, meditation often feels coercive, even if nobody on the "outside" is forcing me. I'm forcing myself. Which is will power on a slightly larger scale than the one to restrict movement.

thomastjeffery 10y ago

Even if that is true, does that mean we should make children sit still and quiet for the better part of 7 hours a day 5 days a week? I don't think so.

bayesian_horse 10y ago
It seems to work remarkably well, though.
bayesian_horse 10y ago
On a side note: Breaks and activity are necessary. And maybe, through developing better ways to develop a strong PFC, which is crucial to a non-violent society. I do believe that compulsory schooling, and increasing rates of schooling, lowered the rates of violence somewhat. I don't have proof for that idea, unfortunately, but it is plausible just from the idea that school builds discipline or strengthens the attention network in the brain, and that this kind of strengthening has been linked to better self control and less aggression.

UhUhUhUh 10y ago

Second that. The whole learning process is about substituting cognitive action to behavioral action. Kids can handle it and do it very well. It is important, and I would say essential, to push their limits as much as possible. When I was a kid myself, the end of the school day (in a European country) could be heard block away: hordes of kids running out screaming!

nsajko 10y ago

The same argument could be used for having the kids auto-flagellate. That could be healthier, too.

jarboot 10y ago

> Restricting movement builds will power through strengthening the pre-frontal cortex. Got some source for that one? Any scholarly publications or anything?

Senderman 10y ago

It sounds like you're confusing will power with obedience.