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I agree, learning to really communicate with some other species on earth seems like a worthwhile challenge that would push us in interesting directions. On ano

I agree, learning to really communicate with some other species on earth seems like a worthwhile challenge that would push us in interesting directions. On another thread (about dolphins finding ways to eat octopi without getting suffocated by still-alive-and-fighting disembodied tentacles), some similar thoughts came up. I have to wonder if one reason for slow progress is that we've bored our subjects. Maybe we should send poets and musicians as ambassadors, not literal-minded scientists. I read of a researcher who played recorded dolphin sounds for dolphins, and she wanted to teach dolphins to say names she made up for three objects. I don't think the results were very encouraging. But that might be because the dolphins found it pointless. Dolphins are aware of one another's sonar. So, they would never need to vocalize "Look at that over there." They already know what pod-mates are paying attention to. Why would they verbalize about things that are already obvious on the pod's echolocation radar? They might not have a use for concrete nouns. Dolphins' vocal communications might deal with abstract things like social dynamics, emotions, intuition, and humor. One other clue: I read of a recording of an upset, irate dolphin. When slowed down significantly, it was clear the dolphin was mimicking it's trainer's reprimands. So, we have to start by admitting that their processing speed is way higher than ours. They're also the only animal with a more highly folded cortex than ours. These are creatures that can be taught a command that means "innovate" - do something different that you haven't shown me yet today. Maybe innovation is a key aspect of their language. Maybe we need to think way outside the box about what a language could be. As for dolphins and building ... they don't need protection from sun, rain, and snow; vast swaths of ocean are just the right temperature for them; they can sleep with half their brains at a time while swimming; and they are not interested in stockpiling food for later. What do they stand to gain from building? What dolphins lack in material culture, they might make up for in social life, poetry, philosophy, and music. Maybe they're looking at us with pity: "Their pod dynamics wouldn't be such a mess if only they didn't waste so much time and effort building stuff..."

thinkmilitant 10y ago
-What do they stand to gain from building?- I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. One(human) would assume they might want to build something to reduce those odds?
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  You're assuming another intelligence values the same things as humans. > I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. Hell, we can find humans that don't value such things. Take a look at Christian Scientists, they'll forgo treatment of disease out of fear of rejecting the "divine Principle". Dolphins use tools to hunt and catch prey. They also engage is pretty complex behaviors to eat. It took humans roughly a hundred thousand years to find a solution to death from a lack of food through agriculture and we have opposable thumbs.
- xherberta 10y ago
  In terms of food and disease, I would argue they're better off 'seafaring' than settling down in dwellings. In terms of predation, dolphins are close to being apex predators. Some species and populations have no natural enemies, while in some areas dolphins have to worry about a few of the larger species of sharks and type-2 orcas. It seems that establishing a built residence would be both an asset and a liability when trying to evade predators. By roaming the open ocean, they're essentially playing a game of "battleship" on a very large board. In other words, there's only a problem when predators and the pod happen to bump into each other. Having walls may help security, but it also ensures that your enemies know where to find you. Land mammals nest to protect babies before they become mobile. Dolphin calves swim almost immediately, and by drafting in formation with their mothers can keep up with the pod. I'm curious whether it ever makes sense for carnivores to take up agriculture... both in terms of feasibility and considering that hunting is a cooperative outlet for natural carnivorous aggression.
hyperpallium 10y ago
"... man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons."
- fib 10y ago
  For the benefit of those who may not recognize that excerpt, it comes from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.

thinkmilitant 10y ago

-What do they stand to gain from building?- I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. One(human) would assume they might want to build something to reduce those odds?

darpa_escapee 10y ago
You're assuming another intelligence values the same things as humans. > I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. Hell, we can find humans that don't value such things. Take a look at Christian Scientists, they'll forgo treatment of disease out of fear of rejecting the "divine Principle". Dolphins use tools to hunt and catch prey. They also engage is pretty complex behaviors to eat. It took humans roughly a hundred thousand years to find a solution to death from a lack of food through agriculture and we have opposable thumbs.
xherberta 10y ago
In terms of food and disease, I would argue they're better off 'seafaring' than settling down in dwellings. In terms of predation, dolphins are close to being apex predators. Some species and populations have no natural enemies, while in some areas dolphins have to worry about a few of the larger species of sharks and type-2 orcas. It seems that establishing a built residence would be both an asset and a liability when trying to evade predators. By roaming the open ocean, they're essentially playing a game of "battleship" on a very large board. In other words, there's only a problem when predators and the pod happen to bump into each other. Having walls may help security, but it also ensures that your enemies know where to find you. Land mammals nest to protect babies before they become mobile. Dolphin calves swim almost immediately, and by drafting in formation with their mothers can keep up with the pod. I'm curious whether it ever makes sense for carnivores to take up agriculture... both in terms of feasibility and considering that hunting is a cooperative outlet for natural carnivorous aggression.

hyperpallium 10y ago

"... man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons."

fib 10y ago
For the benefit of those who may not recognize that excerpt, it comes from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.