6 ms·

I've thought for a long time that before we focus on communicating with extraterrestrials, it makes more sense to find ways to communicate more fluently with ex

I've thought for a long time that before we focus on communicating with extraterrestrials, it makes more sense to find ways to communicate more fluently with existing beings on our planet, starting with ones we share a common intelligence with (dolphins, raccoons, cephalopods, etc). We take the animals on this planet for granted, as "lesser than," but what's to say they aren't as intelligent and just express it in different ways? You could say "well dolphins don't build cars or xboxes!" and I would say "dolphins also aren't systematically destroying the planet they live on." I know we're slowly bridging the gaps of communication with animals (for instance, dogs who can understand verbal language or dolphins who can associate objects with words), but it would be interesting if there were more fluent ways of communication besides verbal. I think it would do us well to master these.

taco_emoji 10y ago
> "dolphins also aren't systematically destroying the planet they live on." You're arguing that dolphins aren't destroying the planet because, what, they decided not to? Dolphins may or may not be smarter than we give them credit for, but the fact that they don't exhibit one particular behavior is not evidence of anything at all.
- mannykannot 10y ago
  I take it to be a comment on human intelligence.
rarec 10y ago
Dolphins not systematically destroying the planet might be more of a lack of ability to instead of desire. Hard to say, really, they're woefully limited in their ability to affect their environment.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Yeah, this Dolphin-worship reeks of "noble savage".
  - Terr_ 10y ago
    IMO it's a sort of "inverted snobbery", where people (rightly) reject the idea that humans are uniquely superior, but they still want to feel special, so they compromise with the idea that humans are uniquely villainous. I believe the correct approach is to attack the "unique" part: We aren't.
    - tim333 10y ago
      Though taking the human part out, if you compare our relatives the chimps with dolphins I think you'll find dolphins behave more nicely.
      - veidr 10y ago
        > dolphins behave more nicely A cephalopod might disagree with that assessment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041682
        pavel_lishin 10y ago
        Or even other dolphins: http://scribol.com/environment/animals-environment/bottlenose-dolphin-the-only-marine-animal-that-kills-for-fun/ http://scribol.com/environment/animals-environment/bottlenos... http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150716-dolphins-that-kill-their-young http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150716-dolphins-that-kill-t... http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/13/dolphins_are_violent_predators_that_kill_their_own_babies.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/13/dolphins_are...
pavel_lishin 10y ago
I read a short essay by David Brin, wherein he laments that despite all the years spent on studying dolphin language and intelligence, it's likely that we've been fooling ourselves all along. Can't find it now, though :/
- akud 10y ago
  It's in a book called Otherness
- mannykannot 10y ago
  IIRC, part of that argument was that if dolphins had a language, surely the word about the dangers of getting caught in seine nets would have spread through the community.
xherberta 10y ago
I agree, learning to really communicate with some other species on earth seems like a worthwhile challenge that would push us in interesting directions. On another thread (about dolphins finding ways to eat octopi without getting suffocated by still-alive-and-fighting disembodied tentacles), some similar thoughts came up. I have to wonder if one reason for slow progress is that we've bored our subjects. Maybe we should send poets and musicians as ambassadors, not literal-minded scientists. I read of a researcher who played recorded dolphin sounds for dolphins, and she wanted to teach dolphins to say names she made up for three objects. I don't think the results were very encouraging. But that might be because the dolphins found it pointless. Dolphins are aware of one another's sonar. So, they would never need to vocalize "Look at that over there." They already know what pod-mates are paying attention to. Why would they verbalize about things that are already obvious on the pod's echolocation radar? They might not have a use for concrete nouns. Dolphins' vocal communications might deal with abstract things like social dynamics, emotions, intuition, and humor. One other clue: I read of a recording of an upset, irate dolphin. When slowed down significantly, it was clear the dolphin was mimicking it's trainer's reprimands. So, we have to start by admitting that their processing speed is way higher than ours. They're also the only animal with a more highly folded cortex than ours. These are creatures that can be taught a command that means "innovate" - do something different that you haven't shown me yet today. Maybe innovation is a key aspect of their language. Maybe we need to think way outside the box about what a language could be. As for dolphins and building ... they don't need protection from sun, rain, and snow; vast swaths of ocean are just the right temperature for them; they can sleep with half their brains at a time while swimming; and they are not interested in stockpiling food for later. What do they stand to gain from building? What dolphins lack in material culture, they might make up for in social life, poetry, philosophy, and music. Maybe they're looking at us with pity: "Their pod dynamics wouldn't be such a mess if only they didn't waste so much time and effort building stuff..."
- thinkmilitant 10y ago
  -What do they stand to gain from building?- I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. One(human) would assume they might want to build something to reduce those odds?
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
I'm not sure that it's valid in any way to say that we share a common intelligence with cephalopods. We share the same planet, and the same fundamentals of cellular biology, but I wouldn't go much further...

taco_emoji 10y ago

> "dolphins also aren't systematically destroying the planet they live on." You're arguing that dolphins aren't destroying the planet because, what, they decided not to? Dolphins may or may not be smarter than we give them credit for, but the fact that they don't exhibit one particular behavior is not evidence of anything at all.

mannykannot 10y ago
I take it to be a comment on human intelligence.

rarec 10y ago

Dolphins not systematically destroying the planet might be more of a lack of ability to instead of desire. Hard to say, really, they're woefully limited in their ability to affect their environment.

pavel_lishin 10y ago
Yeah, this Dolphin-worship reeks of "noble savage".
- Terr_ 10y ago
  IMO it's a sort of "inverted snobbery", where people (rightly) reject the idea that humans are uniquely superior, but they still want to feel special, so they compromise with the idea that humans are uniquely villainous. I believe the correct approach is to attack the "unique" part: We aren't.
  - tim333 10y ago
    Though taking the human part out, if you compare our relatives the chimps with dolphins I think you'll find dolphins behave more nicely.
    - veidr 10y ago
      > dolphins behave more nicely A cephalopod might disagree with that assessment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041682
      - pavel_lishin 10y ago
        Or even other dolphins: http://scribol.com/environment/animals-environment/bottlenose-dolphin-the-only-marine-animal-that-kills-for-fun/ http://scribol.com/environment/animals-environment/bottlenos... http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150716-dolphins-that-kill-their-young http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150716-dolphins-that-kill-t... http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/13/dolphins_are_violent_predators_that_kill_their_own_babies.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/05/13/dolphins_are...

pavel_lishin 10y ago

I read a short essay by David Brin, wherein he laments that despite all the years spent on studying dolphin language and intelligence, it's likely that we've been fooling ourselves all along. Can't find it now, though :/

akud 10y ago
It's in a book called Otherness
mannykannot 10y ago
IIRC, part of that argument was that if dolphins had a language, surely the word about the dangers of getting caught in seine nets would have spread through the community.

xherberta 10y ago

I agree, learning to really communicate with some other species on earth seems like a worthwhile challenge that would push us in interesting directions. On another thread (about dolphins finding ways to eat octopi without getting suffocated by still-alive-and-fighting disembodied tentacles), some similar thoughts came up. I have to wonder if one reason for slow progress is that we've bored our subjects. Maybe we should send poets and musicians as ambassadors, not literal-minded scientists. I read of a researcher who played recorded dolphin sounds for dolphins, and she wanted to teach dolphins to say names she made up for three objects. I don't think the results were very encouraging. But that might be because the dolphins found it pointless. Dolphins are aware of one another's sonar. So, they would never need to vocalize "Look at that over there." They already know what pod-mates are paying attention to. Why would they verbalize about things that are already obvious on the pod's echolocation radar? They might not have a use for concrete nouns. Dolphins' vocal communications might deal with abstract things like social dynamics, emotions, intuition, and humor. One other clue: I read of a recording of an upset, irate dolphin. When slowed down significantly, it was clear the dolphin was mimicking it's trainer's reprimands. So, we have to start by admitting that their processing speed is way higher than ours. They're also the only animal with a more highly folded cortex than ours. These are creatures that can be taught a command that means "innovate" - do something different that you haven't shown me yet today. Maybe innovation is a key aspect of their language. Maybe we need to think way outside the box about what a language could be. As for dolphins and building ... they don't need protection from sun, rain, and snow; vast swaths of ocean are just the right temperature for them; they can sleep with half their brains at a time while swimming; and they are not interested in stockpiling food for later. What do they stand to gain from building? What dolphins lack in material culture, they might make up for in social life, poetry, philosophy, and music. Maybe they're looking at us with pity: "Their pod dynamics wouldn't be such a mess if only they didn't waste so much time and effort building stuff..."

thinkmilitant 10y ago
-What do they stand to gain from building?- I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. One(human) would assume they might want to build something to reduce those odds?

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

I'm not sure that it's valid in any way to say that we share a common intelligence with cephalopods. We share the same planet, and the same fundamentals of cellular biology, but I wouldn't go much further...