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> “Then why did he steal this stuff? That’s the story the jury’s going to want to know about,” Judge William Alsup retorted. I find it alarming that the judge

by bhups 9y ago

> “Then why did he steal this stuff? That’s the story the jury’s going to want to know about,” Judge William Alsup retorted. I find it alarming that the judge assumes a "guilty until proven innocent" position. Obviously outsiders like us would take a stance like this, but for a judge on the bench to operate in that manner sets off all kinds of red flags for me.

cobookman 9y ago
> I find it alarming that the judge assumes a "guilty until proven innocent" position I find this more of a waymo provided enough information for a the judge to rule a `guilty` verdict. However the judge does not yet know who to apply the guilty verdict to, and how sever the punishment needs to be. Also this is a civil suit not a criminal one. The same rules do not apply. IANAL.
- bhups 9y ago
  Maybe I'm wrong, but the whole point of this case is to prove this. I would find a more impartial adjudicator to take more of a "the motives contradict with the allegations of theft" view. To outright say that the theft occurs before an official judgement was made seems in poor taste for, well, a judge.
  - gareim 9y ago
    Google has logs. Google made assertions with the logs backing them up. Uber (to my knowledge) has not denied the assertions. The employee in question (to my knowledge) has not denied the assertions. It's a civil case. That's probably enough.
    - lost953 9y ago
      The bar in civil cases is preponderance of the evidence, of which Google has plenty and Uber / Levandowski have shown very little. It seems beyond sufficient at this point anyway.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - bmelton 9y ago
    Worth noting that while I might otherwise agree with your position, the thing you're missing here is that this isn't a case as you're used to seeing them, and neither guilt nor innocence is being determined here. Preliminary injunctions function very differently from other legal proceedings. What Waymo might do is offer proof that Lewandowski stole the documents. What Uber might do is offer proof that he didn't, or that even if he did, it doesn't matter for some other reason. In determining whether or not an injunction can proceed, the judge isn't being asked to determine guilt or innocence, but to determine, based on the strength of the evidence, whether or not they might later find something like guilt or innocence enough that an injunction should or should not be granted. If Waymo were to offer continuous video of Lewandowski stealing the documents and taking them to Uber, uploading it to their servers, and then implementing them in their self-driving cars, a judge would almost certainly find that guilt is probable enough to establish positive grounds for issuing an injunction, but that does not mean that Lewandowski is found guilty in the way that we usually associate guilt.
Boxbot 9y ago
My (admittedly limited) understanding of the case so far is that neither Uber nor the former Google employee dispute that the theft did in fact take place.
- xyzzy_plugh 9y ago
  Forgive my ignorance, but can Uber dispute that the theft did in fact take place if ther former Google employee isn't saying anything? Could they not be as ignorant as you or I?
  - gareim 9y ago
    They could be as ignorant, but the fact that they haven't forced their employee to disclose anything appears to the judge that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  No, you're wrong. Uber doesn't know if Levandowski stole the documents or not. But they are saying it doesn't matter, that any stolen documents are between the individual and Google, because none of those documents made it into Uber's code base or designs, and none of Google's designs are in their current research Lidar, which was developed by an entirely different company that was bought before Levandowski even left Google.
TulliusCicero 9y ago
Neither Uber nor Levandowski have denied that he downloaded the documents, and apparently Waymo's evidence is pretty strong. The fact that they're arguing "we didn't use those documents" rather than "he never stole those documents before we acquired his company" basically amounts to admitting that he took them.
geofft 9y ago
I think they've admitted the theft of the files in court. As quoted in yesterday's thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14044517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14044517 : > "He downloaded 14,000 files, he wiped clean the computer, and he took [them] with him. That's the record. He’s not denying it. You're not denying it. No one on your side is denying he has the 14,000 files." So, "You've already said he stole the files, why" seems like a perfectly reasonable question for a judge to ask.
aetherson 9y ago
In addition to what everyone else here has mentioned, note that this case is not against Levandowski. Google is suing Uber, and even if Alsup thinks that Levandowski is guilty as sin, this won't send him to jail or even render a civil judgment against him.
latch 9y ago
You're jumping to conclusions by assuming that a federal judge is jumping to conclusions. If you read that and the first thing you think is "that judge can't judge!", that's not good. Anyways, the judge has made is very clear that the evidence against them is very strong, that the record is very strong, and that so far neither Uber nor Levandowski have denied that he stole the 14 000 documents.
- bhups 9y ago
  I'm neither a lawyer nor a judge, but I'm just wondering if this is a typical type of thing to assert during a judgement. It just jumped out as impartial to me.
  - TulliusCicero 9y ago
    I don't think impartial means what you think it means.
    - bhups 9y ago
      Possibly, I think "impartial" means reserving the judgement until the judgement is to be made at the end of the trial as opposed to in the middle of the trial, which could very well be wrong - IANAL.
      - GauntletWizard 9y ago
        And that's where you're very wrong. Large portions of a trial require judgements to have already been made, even if they've not been written down in a definitive 'judgement' yet. Alsup has made it clear that he's decided that it is a 'matter of fact' that Levandowski stole documents. Now they're arguing over who's responsible and liable. IANAL, so I might be way off base.
      - btilly 9y ago
        You would be entirely wrong. A trial like this is not a single giant evidence dump followed by a giant decision. It is a series of hearings. After each hearing something can be ruled on. You can issue a subpoena to collect more information about A, we have settled B as a fact, you are misreading the law so you have to drop that line of inquiry, etc. Each hearing is impartial. But impartial decisions come at many points. In fact some points will be appealed to a higher court which will make a ruling and then send it to a lower court again with instructions about how to proceed. This sort of thing can take years.
michael_storm 9y ago
Neither party is contesting that the documents were stolen [1]. Everyone is basically assuming that he did it; Uber's defense in this preliminary-injunction hearing is that the stolen documents never made it to Uber. [1] http://wsau.com/news/articles/2017/mar/31/waymo-uber-judge-says-may-grant-injunction-if-key-witness-takes-fifth/ http://wsau.com/news/articles/2017/mar/31/waymo-uber-judge-s...
- caseysoftware 9y ago
  Yes, this looks like it's more to establish that it was one guy alone and has never had any impact on the organization, their processes, etc. If they can do that, it would change from Uber vs Waymo/Alphabet to Levandowski vs Waymo/Alphabet and Levandowski vs Uber. If I was Uber, I know which fight I'd want to step into.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Uber wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to not be stopped by an injunction from Waymo, but it also wants to keep Levandowski as the head of its self-driving car program. Probably those two desires are in conflict; probably Waymo will push in the right places to force them to be in conflict.
  - thinkingthingy 9y ago
    "Yes, this looks like it's more to establish that it was one guy alone and has never had any impact on the organization, their processes, etc." Exactly. But unfortunately for Uber, it's a bit hard to establish that when the guy in question is the head of your entire self-driving program!
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bdonlan 9y ago
Because he's taking the fifth amendment privilege against self-incrimination, for civil court purposes they assume his testimony would be as incriminating as possible. Or so waymo is arguing anyway.
paulddraper 9y ago
Levandowski is guilty (of something, at least). The only question is whether Uber is too. He took the documents when he started working at a competitor. Coincidence? Or did Uber put him up to it? That's what the judge is getting at.
- deleted 9y ago
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- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  He downloaded the documents 6 months before leaving the company. Have you ever downloaded a git repository to do some work at home, 6 months before leaving a company? Google hasn't proven that Levandowski actually did anything with those documents, besides downloading them onto a work computer, months before leaving Google. They don't even know if he copied those files off his laptop. Could it be conceivable that he was actually just working on those files?
  - jimmywanger 9y ago
    Google does not allow source code on non-Google managed devices, or even laptops that are Google managed. You have to be constantly behind Google's firewall to access and develop code, which makes working from home rather difficult. Waymo claims (and Uber has not refuted) that "he downloaded 9.7 GB of Waymo’s highly confidential files and trade secrets, including blueprints, design files and testing documentation. Then he connected an external drive to the laptop. Mr. Levandowski then wiped and reformatted the laptop in an attempt to erase forensic fingerprints." [0] That sort of shoots a hole in the "downloaded to work on at home argument", much like if you go into a bank with a gun, a stocking over your head, and a friend waiting outside in a running car would tend to make your story about just wanting to make a withdrawal pretty suspect. [0] https://medium.com/waymo/a-note-on-our-lawsuit-against-otto-and-uber-86f4f98902a1 https://medium.com/waymo/a-note-on-our-lawsuit-against-otto-...
    - pfarnsworth 9y ago
      EDIT: One thing I got wrong is that it was 6 weeks, not 6 months in my original post. He connected an external drive to the laptop. That's all they know. They didn't say he copied the files onto the external drive. If he did copy them onto the external drive, they would have said this. So now we have to parse their statements. Do they know he copied those files onto the external drive? No. Did he have a movie on there that he viewed? They don't know, apparently. And he wiped and reformatted his laptop. When did he do this? Did he do this immediately? Or did he do it weeks later? They didn't specify this either. I would love more information about this, if he did this all in one night. If they explicitly say he downloaded a repo, he copied it to an external usb drive, and then wiped his laptop all in the course of an hour, that's certainly suspicious. But that's not what they said. Based on what they said, he could have downloaded the repo, worked on it for many days or weeks, attached a usb drive at any point, and wiped the laptop clean before he handed the laptop back to them 6 weeks later. I would love for them to clarify this, because right now they are the purveyors of this information.
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woodandsteel 9y ago
>I find it alarming that the judge assumes a "guilty until proven innocent" position. No, we are in the pre-trial phase. What has been happening is that Judge Alsup ordered Uber several weeks ago to do discovery, and Uber has been resisting doing it as ordered. Alsup has been getting more upset, and is now threatening an injunction if Uber doesn't comply. At this session Uber argued, in effect, "We don't need to do discovery correctly because we are innocent." It is quite unlikely Alsup will be persuaded by this argument.

by bhups 9y ago

cobookman 9y ago

> I find it alarming that the judge assumes a "guilty until proven innocent" position I find this more of a waymo provided enough information for a the judge to rule a `guilty` verdict. However the judge does not yet know who to apply the guilty verdict to, and how sever the punishment needs to be. Also this is a civil suit not a criminal one. The same rules do not apply. IANAL.

bhups 9y ago
Maybe I'm wrong, but the whole point of this case is to prove this. I would find a more impartial adjudicator to take more of a "the motives contradict with the allegations of theft" view. To outright say that the theft occurs before an official judgement was made seems in poor taste for, well, a judge.
- gareim 9y ago
  Google has logs. Google made assertions with the logs backing them up. Uber (to my knowledge) has not denied the assertions. The employee in question (to my knowledge) has not denied the assertions. It's a civil case. That's probably enough.
  - lost953 9y ago
    The bar in civil cases is preponderance of the evidence, of which Google has plenty and Uber / Levandowski have shown very little. It seems beyond sufficient at this point anyway.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bmelton 9y ago
  Worth noting that while I might otherwise agree with your position, the thing you're missing here is that this isn't a case as you're used to seeing them, and neither guilt nor innocence is being determined here. Preliminary injunctions function very differently from other legal proceedings. What Waymo might do is offer proof that Lewandowski stole the documents. What Uber might do is offer proof that he didn't, or that even if he did, it doesn't matter for some other reason. In determining whether or not an injunction can proceed, the judge isn't being asked to determine guilt or innocence, but to determine, based on the strength of the evidence, whether or not they might later find something like guilt or innocence enough that an injunction should or should not be granted. If Waymo were to offer continuous video of Lewandowski stealing the documents and taking them to Uber, uploading it to their servers, and then implementing them in their self-driving cars, a judge would almost certainly find that guilt is probable enough to establish positive grounds for issuing an injunction, but that does not mean that Lewandowski is found guilty in the way that we usually associate guilt.

Boxbot 9y ago

My (admittedly limited) understanding of the case so far is that neither Uber nor the former Google employee dispute that the theft did in fact take place.

xyzzy_plugh 9y ago
Forgive my ignorance, but can Uber dispute that the theft did in fact take place if ther former Google employee isn't saying anything? Could they not be as ignorant as you or I?
- gareim 9y ago
  They could be as ignorant, but the fact that they haven't forced their employee to disclose anything appears to the judge that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
pfarnsworth 9y ago
No, you're wrong. Uber doesn't know if Levandowski stole the documents or not. But they are saying it doesn't matter, that any stolen documents are between the individual and Google, because none of those documents made it into Uber's code base or designs, and none of Google's designs are in their current research Lidar, which was developed by an entirely different company that was bought before Levandowski even left Google.

TulliusCicero 9y ago

Neither Uber nor Levandowski have denied that he downloaded the documents, and apparently Waymo's evidence is pretty strong. The fact that they're arguing "we didn't use those documents" rather than "he never stole those documents before we acquired his company" basically amounts to admitting that he took them.

geofft 9y ago

I think they've admitted the theft of the files in court. As quoted in yesterday's thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14044517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14044517 : > "He downloaded 14,000 files, he wiped clean the computer, and he took [them] with him. That's the record. He’s not denying it. You're not denying it. No one on your side is denying he has the 14,000 files." So, "You've already said he stole the files, why" seems like a perfectly reasonable question for a judge to ask.

aetherson 9y ago

In addition to what everyone else here has mentioned, note that this case is not against Levandowski. Google is suing Uber, and even if Alsup thinks that Levandowski is guilty as sin, this won't send him to jail or even render a civil judgment against him.

latch 9y ago

You're jumping to conclusions by assuming that a federal judge is jumping to conclusions. If you read that and the first thing you think is "that judge can't judge!", that's not good. Anyways, the judge has made is very clear that the evidence against them is very strong, that the record is very strong, and that so far neither Uber nor Levandowski have denied that he stole the 14 000 documents.

bhups 9y ago
I'm neither a lawyer nor a judge, but I'm just wondering if this is a typical type of thing to assert during a judgement. It just jumped out as impartial to me.
- TulliusCicero 9y ago
  I don't think impartial means what you think it means.
  - bhups 9y ago
    Possibly, I think "impartial" means reserving the judgement until the judgement is to be made at the end of the trial as opposed to in the middle of the trial, which could very well be wrong - IANAL.
    - GauntletWizard 9y ago
      And that's where you're very wrong. Large portions of a trial require judgements to have already been made, even if they've not been written down in a definitive 'judgement' yet. Alsup has made it clear that he's decided that it is a 'matter of fact' that Levandowski stole documents. Now they're arguing over who's responsible and liable. IANAL, so I might be way off base.
    - btilly 9y ago
      You would be entirely wrong. A trial like this is not a single giant evidence dump followed by a giant decision. It is a series of hearings. After each hearing something can be ruled on. You can issue a subpoena to collect more information about A, we have settled B as a fact, you are misreading the law so you have to drop that line of inquiry, etc. Each hearing is impartial. But impartial decisions come at many points. In fact some points will be appealed to a higher court which will make a ruling and then send it to a lower court again with instructions about how to proceed. This sort of thing can take years.

michael_storm 9y ago

Neither party is contesting that the documents were stolen [1]. Everyone is basically assuming that he did it; Uber's defense in this preliminary-injunction hearing is that the stolen documents never made it to Uber. [1] http://wsau.com/news/articles/2017/mar/31/waymo-uber-judge-says-may-grant-injunction-if-key-witness-takes-fifth/ http://wsau.com/news/articles/2017/mar/31/waymo-uber-judge-s...

caseysoftware 9y ago
Yes, this looks like it's more to establish that it was one guy alone and has never had any impact on the organization, their processes, etc. If they can do that, it would change from Uber vs Waymo/Alphabet to Levandowski vs Waymo/Alphabet and Levandowski vs Uber. If I was Uber, I know which fight I'd want to step into.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Uber wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to not be stopped by an injunction from Waymo, but it also wants to keep Levandowski as the head of its self-driving car program. Probably those two desires are in conflict; probably Waymo will push in the right places to force them to be in conflict.
- thinkingthingy 9y ago
  "Yes, this looks like it's more to establish that it was one guy alone and has never had any impact on the organization, their processes, etc." Exactly. But unfortunately for Uber, it's a bit hard to establish that when the guy in question is the head of your entire self-driving program!

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bdonlan 9y ago

Because he's taking the fifth amendment privilege against self-incrimination, for civil court purposes they assume his testimony would be as incriminating as possible. Or so waymo is arguing anyway.

paulddraper 9y ago

Levandowski is guilty (of something, at least). The only question is whether Uber is too. He took the documents when he started working at a competitor. Coincidence? Or did Uber put him up to it? That's what the judge is getting at.

deleted 9y ago
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pfarnsworth 9y ago
He downloaded the documents 6 months before leaving the company. Have you ever downloaded a git repository to do some work at home, 6 months before leaving a company? Google hasn't proven that Levandowski actually did anything with those documents, besides downloading them onto a work computer, months before leaving Google. They don't even know if he copied those files off his laptop. Could it be conceivable that he was actually just working on those files?
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Google does not allow source code on non-Google managed devices, or even laptops that are Google managed. You have to be constantly behind Google's firewall to access and develop code, which makes working from home rather difficult. Waymo claims (and Uber has not refuted) that "he downloaded 9.7 GB of Waymo’s highly confidential files and trade secrets, including blueprints, design files and testing documentation. Then he connected an external drive to the laptop. Mr. Levandowski then wiped and reformatted the laptop in an attempt to erase forensic fingerprints." [0] That sort of shoots a hole in the "downloaded to work on at home argument", much like if you go into a bank with a gun, a stocking over your head, and a friend waiting outside in a running car would tend to make your story about just wanting to make a withdrawal pretty suspect. [0] https://medium.com/waymo/a-note-on-our-lawsuit-against-otto-and-uber-86f4f98902a1 https://medium.com/waymo/a-note-on-our-lawsuit-against-otto-...
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    EDIT: One thing I got wrong is that it was 6 weeks, not 6 months in my original post. He connected an external drive to the laptop. That's all they know. They didn't say he copied the files onto the external drive. If he did copy them onto the external drive, they would have said this. So now we have to parse their statements. Do they know he copied those files onto the external drive? No. Did he have a movie on there that he viewed? They don't know, apparently. And he wiped and reformatted his laptop. When did he do this? Did he do this immediately? Or did he do it weeks later? They didn't specify this either. I would love more information about this, if he did this all in one night. If they explicitly say he downloaded a repo, he copied it to an external usb drive, and then wiped his laptop all in the course of an hour, that's certainly suspicious. But that's not what they said. Based on what they said, he could have downloaded the repo, worked on it for many days or weeks, attached a usb drive at any point, and wiped the laptop clean before he handed the laptop back to them 6 weeks later. I would love for them to clarify this, because right now they are the purveyors of this information.

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woodandsteel 9y ago

>I find it alarming that the judge assumes a "guilty until proven innocent" position. No, we are in the pre-trial phase. What has been happening is that Judge Alsup ordered Uber several weeks ago to do discovery, and Uber has been resisting doing it as ordered. Alsup has been getting more upset, and is now threatening an injunction if Uber doesn't comply. At this session Uber argued, in effect, "We don't need to do discovery correctly because we are innocent." It is quite unlikely Alsup will be persuaded by this argument.