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Why does gc disqualify a language as a system's language? P.S. I think of a system's language as one that runs directly on the machine, e.g. Swift, C, go. They

Why does gc disqualify a language as a system's language? P.S. I think of a system's language as one that runs directly on the machine, e.g. Swift, C, go. They operate at the "system" level.

Rusky 10y ago
You can definitely do systems programming with a GC, but it does get in the way sometimes. Drivers will most likely need to bypass it entirely; more importantly, libraries to be embedded in other programs (including scripting languages) now have to deal with two garbage collectors rather than one.
camus2 10y ago
> Why does gc disqualify a language as a system's language? AFAIK a "system programming language" should have deterministic performances, obviously Go hasn't. But different people might define "systems" differently.
- vardump 10y ago
  I think Go should be pretty deterministic, if you don't allocate or free at all at runtime. Just like C. You lose determinism with malloc() and free(). As any embedded/kernel developer knows, malloc() takes often unacceptably long time. Or even free().
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    Go does allocate and free at runtime, it just isn't explicit because its a garbage collected language and the garbage collector handles most of the freeing for you. Different GC'd languages handle allocations differently, some have a keyword, some do it whenever creating an instance of a type over a certain size. With C, C++ and Rust allocating memory often boils down to calling something equivalent to malloc and free. While the cost is not precisely known all modern OS provide guarantees are the time to execute relative to the size of the amount requested. This is almost always such a simple and fast operation that allocation is what gets optimized only after the algorithms and data structures have been tuned and this is a known bottleneck. Many application never get to the stage of optimizations (Games almost always do, stupid fixed time frame budget). Consider the amount of work the GC does and understand why any GC is generally considered no-deterministic: https://blog.golang.org/go15gc https://blog.golang.org/go15gc
    - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
      Does modern C++ or rust allow you to say "deallocate this pointer here" (like free or delete)? I was under the impression that Rust (and safe_ptr) deallocate at scope end, which could also cause framerate issues (unless you do ugly scope hacks). I do agree that you're unlikely to bump into this issue, though.
      - dbaupp 10y ago
        Yes, you can explicitly call drop ( https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/mem/fn.drop.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/mem/fn.drop.html ) in Rust, which just uses move semantics to force it out of scope. A similar function could be implemented in C++, and called like drop(std::move(value)).
      - openasocket 10y ago
        With Rust there is the drop() function in the standard library (which is just a no-op function that takes an owned value as an argument) which allows you to shorten the lifetime of the value without having to do ugly things with blocks.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - sqeaky 10y ago
        The are a couple of options in C++. You can just use delete, as you mentioned, it is a C++ only construct as far as I know. For the std library smart pointer, you can get their value (the raw pointer), delete that then assign nullptr to the smart pointer. I would consider this a code smell, and ask hard questions of the authors of such code. The simplest thing to do is to add new scopes. You can introduce as many blocks with { and } as you like. It is a common pattern to lock a mutex with a class that releases the mutex in its destructor (and acquired it in the constructor). The std library includes std::lock_guard[0]. To insure the smallest possible use of the lock a new scope can be introduce around just the critical section and the first line of the block can pass the mutex to the scope guard and it should be about as small and efficient as can be, while be exception safe and easy to write. Hopefully this is also easy to read. You can introduce new scopes with std::shared_ptr or std::unique_ptr as well. This seems common and reasonable. [0] - http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/lock_guard http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/lock_guard
- deaddodo 10y ago
  The people who define Go as a "systems language" use their own terribly useless definition of "systems language". Per wiki: "For historical reasons, some organizations use the term systems programmer to describe a job function which would be more accurately termed systems administrator." So for them, a language that can be used by DevOps Engineers is a systems language. While for sane developers, a systems language is one with deterministic attributes and the ability to be compiled to native code with no/a minimal runtime. I.e. one you can code "a system" in.
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    I.e. one you can code "a system" in Yeah, but "a system" doesn't necessarily mean "an operating system". There are lots of kinds of systems. Most people I know, who I've talked about this with, consider middlware'ish development (think, message queuing systems, application servers, etc.) as an aspect of "systems programming".
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    People have been writing OSes with GC enabled systems programming languages since the late 60's. Would you consider the employees of UK Royal Navy, Xerox PARC, ETHZ, DEC, Compaq, Microsoft as insane developers?
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    Also, it depends on how you define an "OS". If you're in the GNU/BSD/Windows/MacOS camp (where init, ls, sh, cat, etc. Are part of the OS), you can have go (as well as java) in the OS.
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    Also, does the Go standard "require" a mark+sweep? If you write an implementation which uses Reference Counting, it can be "deterministic" and won't require a runtime.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      Sure, but then you'll leak data every time there's cycles in your data structures.
- nialv7 10y ago
  I can have non-deterministic performance even when using C. Also if I use Boehm GC with C, does that disqualify C as system language?
  - camus2 10y ago
    Is GC with C mandatory? it is in Go. See the difference? C doesn't come with a GC.
    - nialv7 10y ago
      GC in D is NOT mandatory.
brakmic 10y ago
Could one write a driver in D?
- qznc 10y ago
  Here is someone writing a kernel in D: https://github.com/Vild/PowerNex https://github.com/Vild/PowerNex
  - Ace17 10y ago
    Another kernel written in D: https://github.com/xomboverlord/xomb/tree/unborn https://github.com/xomboverlord/xomb/tree/unborn
    - steveklabnik 10y ago
      Ah, the memories...
- Keyframe 10y ago
  Yes
  - brakmic 10y ago
    Thanks! Still reading the docs....D seems to have a very clean design. No baggage from some "glorious" past (70es, PDP, IBM 360 etc).
- gmfawcett 10y ago
  There's a fairly recent growth in the D community of a "better C" movement, that is, people using D for lowest-level systems development, device drivers, etc. This seems to have lit a fire under initiatives to reduce D's GC dependency, and its runtime dependency in general. I don't follow this too closely, but it seems they are still at the "hacks and experiments" stage in terms of real-world use (e.g., people writing custom runtimes that stub out the GC, etc.). DConf (http://dconf.org/2017/schedule/ http://dconf.org/2017/schedule/) is in three weeks, and there are a number of related talks. Once the videos are out, you might get a better sense of the current "D as a better C" landscape.

Why does gc disqualify a language as a system's language? P.S. I think of a system's language as one that runs directly on the machine, e.g. Swift, C, go. They operate at the "system" level.

Rusky 10y ago

You can definitely do systems programming with a GC, but it does get in the way sometimes. Drivers will most likely need to bypass it entirely; more importantly, libraries to be embedded in other programs (including scripting languages) now have to deal with two garbage collectors rather than one.

camus2 10y ago

> Why does gc disqualify a language as a system's language? AFAIK a "system programming language" should have deterministic performances, obviously Go hasn't. But different people might define "systems" differently.

vardump 10y ago
I think Go should be pretty deterministic, if you don't allocate or free at all at runtime. Just like C. You lose determinism with malloc() and free(). As any embedded/kernel developer knows, malloc() takes often unacceptably long time. Or even free().
- sqeaky 10y ago
  Go does allocate and free at runtime, it just isn't explicit because its a garbage collected language and the garbage collector handles most of the freeing for you. Different GC'd languages handle allocations differently, some have a keyword, some do it whenever creating an instance of a type over a certain size. With C, C++ and Rust allocating memory often boils down to calling something equivalent to malloc and free. While the cost is not precisely known all modern OS provide guarantees are the time to execute relative to the size of the amount requested. This is almost always such a simple and fast operation that allocation is what gets optimized only after the algorithms and data structures have been tuned and this is a known bottleneck. Many application never get to the stage of optimizations (Games almost always do, stupid fixed time frame budget). Consider the amount of work the GC does and understand why any GC is generally considered no-deterministic: https://blog.golang.org/go15gc https://blog.golang.org/go15gc
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    Does modern C++ or rust allow you to say "deallocate this pointer here" (like free or delete)? I was under the impression that Rust (and safe_ptr) deallocate at scope end, which could also cause framerate issues (unless you do ugly scope hacks). I do agree that you're unlikely to bump into this issue, though.
    - dbaupp 10y ago
      Yes, you can explicitly call drop ( https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/mem/fn.drop.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/mem/fn.drop.html ) in Rust, which just uses move semantics to force it out of scope. A similar function could be implemented in C++, and called like drop(std::move(value)).
    - openasocket 10y ago
      With Rust there is the drop() function in the standard library (which is just a no-op function that takes an owned value as an argument) which allows you to shorten the lifetime of the value without having to do ugly things with blocks.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - sqeaky 10y ago
      The are a couple of options in C++. You can just use delete, as you mentioned, it is a C++ only construct as far as I know. For the std library smart pointer, you can get their value (the raw pointer), delete that then assign nullptr to the smart pointer. I would consider this a code smell, and ask hard questions of the authors of such code. The simplest thing to do is to add new scopes. You can introduce as many blocks with { and } as you like. It is a common pattern to lock a mutex with a class that releases the mutex in its destructor (and acquired it in the constructor). The std library includes std::lock_guard[0]. To insure the smallest possible use of the lock a new scope can be introduce around just the critical section and the first line of the block can pass the mutex to the scope guard and it should be about as small and efficient as can be, while be exception safe and easy to write. Hopefully this is also easy to read. You can introduce new scopes with std::shared_ptr or std::unique_ptr as well. This seems common and reasonable. [0] - http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/lock_guard http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/lock_guard
deaddodo 10y ago
The people who define Go as a "systems language" use their own terribly useless definition of "systems language". Per wiki: "For historical reasons, some organizations use the term systems programmer to describe a job function which would be more accurately termed systems administrator." So for them, a language that can be used by DevOps Engineers is a systems language. While for sane developers, a systems language is one with deterministic attributes and the ability to be compiled to native code with no/a minimal runtime. I.e. one you can code "a system" in.
- mindcrime 10y ago
  I.e. one you can code "a system" in Yeah, but "a system" doesn't necessarily mean "an operating system". There are lots of kinds of systems. Most people I know, who I've talked about this with, consider middlware'ish development (think, message queuing systems, application servers, etc.) as an aspect of "systems programming".
- pjmlp 10y ago
  People have been writing OSes with GC enabled systems programming languages since the late 60's. Would you consider the employees of UK Royal Navy, Xerox PARC, ETHZ, DEC, Compaq, Microsoft as insane developers?
- greenhouse_gas 10y ago
  Also, it depends on how you define an "OS". If you're in the GNU/BSD/Windows/MacOS camp (where init, ls, sh, cat, etc. Are part of the OS), you can have go (as well as java) in the OS.
- greenhouse_gas 10y ago
  Also, does the Go standard "require" a mark+sweep? If you write an implementation which uses Reference Counting, it can be "deterministic" and won't require a runtime.
  - openasocket 10y ago
    Sure, but then you'll leak data every time there's cycles in your data structures.
nialv7 10y ago
I can have non-deterministic performance even when using C. Also if I use Boehm GC with C, does that disqualify C as system language?
- camus2 10y ago
  Is GC with C mandatory? it is in Go. See the difference? C doesn't come with a GC.
  - nialv7 10y ago
    GC in D is NOT mandatory.

brakmic 10y ago

Could one write a driver in D?

qznc 10y ago
Here is someone writing a kernel in D: https://github.com/Vild/PowerNex https://github.com/Vild/PowerNex
- Ace17 10y ago
  Another kernel written in D: https://github.com/xomboverlord/xomb/tree/unborn https://github.com/xomboverlord/xomb/tree/unborn
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    Ah, the memories...
Keyframe 10y ago
Yes
- brakmic 10y ago
  Thanks! Still reading the docs....D seems to have a very clean design. No baggage from some "glorious" past (70es, PDP, IBM 360 etc).
gmfawcett 10y ago
There's a fairly recent growth in the D community of a "better C" movement, that is, people using D for lowest-level systems development, device drivers, etc. This seems to have lit a fire under initiatives to reduce D's GC dependency, and its runtime dependency in general. I don't follow this too closely, but it seems they are still at the "hacks and experiments" stage in terms of real-world use (e.g., people writing custom runtimes that stub out the GC, etc.). DConf (http://dconf.org/2017/schedule/ http://dconf.org/2017/schedule/) is in three weeks, and there are a number of related talks. Once the videos are out, you might get a better sense of the current "D as a better C" landscape.