5 ms·

If I'm not mistaken, the Supreme Court made a ruling that searching a person's belongings without probable cause is ok if that person is traveling. It was in 19

If I'm not mistaken, the Supreme Court made a ruling that searching a person's belongings without probable cause is ok if that person is traveling. It was in 1973, way before 9/11.

leereeves 10y ago
There seems to be a lot of outrage about searching electronic devices lately, especially among the tech crowd, but legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. I think it's finally becoming more common because the government is slow to adapt and they're only just now developing the tools to conduct these searches.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- maxerickson 10y ago
  but legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search If the pretext is border security, there is a small difference, the documents stored on an electronic device won't explode or start firing bullets or be used in a stabbing (the contents of a case might). We should absolutely fix the lack of foundational privacy laws in the US though.
  - leereeves 10y ago
    But the contents of a phone might be a recipe for homemade explosives or drugs, or a blueprint for a 3D printed gun, or the schedule for an attack.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      You think it is a good use of resources to scan devices crossing the border for such easy to obtain information? Really? Of course the attack schedule is not easily obtained, but just asking such a dumb terrorist if they are a terrorist should be similarly effective.
      - leereeves 10y ago
        > for such easy to obtain information? Is it easy to obtain in the US without being tracked?
        literallycancer 10y ago
        Yes. Leave all electronics at home. Go to another location, avoid cameras, etc. Use a fresh device left there by someone else. Get the information, destroy device. Never go to the same place again.
        leereeves 10y ago
        That doesn't sound easy to me, but then, perhaps I simply don't have the right experience.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      If you believe this, why not dragnet everybody's devices all the time? Surely you'd generate more recipes for explosives and drugs, and be able to prevent all sorts of crimes.
      - leereeves 10y ago
        For the same reason we don't frisk everyone all the time. Privacy does matter, but long ago society decided to suspend those rights at the border. If you want to revisit that, fine, but don't claim current policy is a change. Searching people at the border has been standard practice for a long time.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Can you be more specific about what "reason" you're referring to? It's not at all clear to me what it is from the logic you're employing upthread.
        leereeves 10y ago
        The second sentence mentioned the reason. Privacy does matter. It's in the Bill of Rights. And it should matter. But like every right, it has exceptions. One exception we mostly agreed on, until recently, was being searched when crossing the border.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  > ...legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. Of course there is. My suitcase has my clothes, toiletries, and maybe a book to read when I get to my destination. My electronic device has a list of everyone I correspond with, what we type to each other, all the websites I visit both at home and on the go (Firefox Sync), everywhere I've traveled with that device since I got it, every destination I've searched for since I got it, my home WiFi SSID and password, the SSID/password of any place I've been allowed to connect including work, access to every file in every cloud storage service I use, username/password to all the VPS and dedicated servers I manage for myself and for all my clients, remote access to my home network and my work network, and so on. The scope of my suitcase is limited to what I'm wearing and what I'm reading on my trip. The scope of my mobile device is a huge chunk of my entire life. Do you get the difference now?
  - leereeves 10y ago
    In 1973, your suitcase might have contained a list of all your contacts, love letters from your mistress, maps, business papers, a diary. Were any of those ever forbidden from searches?
    - morganvachon 10y ago
      Are you seriously arguing that we should not expect any privacy at all just because where people store their information has evolved over the past half century? In 1973 and in 2017 your suitcase could contain a gun. searching and backing up the contents of your cellphone has nothing to do with preventing a weapon coming on board. There is a legitimate reason to search luggage, there is absolutely no reason to know the intimate contents of someone's device at the border. At most, x-ray the device to ensure it's not a bomb, otherwise stay the fuck out of my personal business.
      - leereeves 10y ago
        I'm arguing that we shouldn't expect more privacy simply because we've started storing our secrets electronically instead of on paper. Even in 1973 people had private info they didn't want the government to see, yet the Court decided other concerns overrode the Fourth Amendment.
- thomastjeffery 10y ago
  > there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. I can fit several lethal weapons inside a [suit,brief]case. The data on my phone is not a lethal weapon. The entire purpose of searching luggage is to prevent someone from bringing a lethal weapon into a group of people who are physically incapable of leaving. My cell phone's data contains literally zero threats to those around me.

If I'm not mistaken, the Supreme Court made a ruling that searching a person's belongings without probable cause is ok if that person is traveling. It was in 1973, way before 9/11.

leereeves 10y ago

There seems to be a lot of outrage about searching electronic devices lately, especially among the tech crowd, but legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. I think it's finally becoming more common because the government is slow to adapt and they're only just now developing the tools to conduct these searches.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 10y ago
but legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search If the pretext is border security, there is a small difference, the documents stored on an electronic device won't explode or start firing bullets or be used in a stabbing (the contents of a case might). We should absolutely fix the lack of foundational privacy laws in the US though.
- leereeves 10y ago
  But the contents of a phone might be a recipe for homemade explosives or drugs, or a blueprint for a 3D printed gun, or the schedule for an attack.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    You think it is a good use of resources to scan devices crossing the border for such easy to obtain information? Really? Of course the attack schedule is not easily obtained, but just asking such a dumb terrorist if they are a terrorist should be similarly effective.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      > for such easy to obtain information? Is it easy to obtain in the US without being tracked?
      - literallycancer 10y ago
        Yes. Leave all electronics at home. Go to another location, avoid cameras, etc. Use a fresh device left there by someone else. Get the information, destroy device. Never go to the same place again.
        leereeves 10y ago
        That doesn't sound easy to me, but then, perhaps I simply don't have the right experience.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    If you believe this, why not dragnet everybody's devices all the time? Surely you'd generate more recipes for explosives and drugs, and be able to prevent all sorts of crimes.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      For the same reason we don't frisk everyone all the time. Privacy does matter, but long ago society decided to suspend those rights at the border. If you want to revisit that, fine, but don't claim current policy is a change. Searching people at the border has been standard practice for a long time.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Can you be more specific about what "reason" you're referring to? It's not at all clear to me what it is from the logic you're employing upthread.
        leereeves 10y ago
        The second sentence mentioned the reason. Privacy does matter. It's in the Bill of Rights. And it should matter. But like every right, it has exceptions. One exception we mostly agreed on, until recently, was being searched when crossing the border.
morganvachon 10y ago
> ...legally there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. Of course there is. My suitcase has my clothes, toiletries, and maybe a book to read when I get to my destination. My electronic device has a list of everyone I correspond with, what we type to each other, all the websites I visit both at home and on the go (Firefox Sync), everywhere I've traveled with that device since I got it, every destination I've searched for since I got it, my home WiFi SSID and password, the SSID/password of any place I've been allowed to connect including work, access to every file in every cloud storage service I use, username/password to all the VPS and dedicated servers I manage for myself and for all my clients, remote access to my home network and my work network, and so on. The scope of my suitcase is limited to what I'm wearing and what I'm reading on my trip. The scope of my mobile device is a huge chunk of my entire life. Do you get the difference now?
- leereeves 10y ago
  In 1973, your suitcase might have contained a list of all your contacts, love letters from your mistress, maps, business papers, a diary. Were any of those ever forbidden from searches?
  - morganvachon 10y ago
    Are you seriously arguing that we should not expect any privacy at all just because where people store their information has evolved over the past half century? In 1973 and in 2017 your suitcase could contain a gun. searching and backing up the contents of your cellphone has nothing to do with preventing a weapon coming on board. There is a legitimate reason to search luggage, there is absolutely no reason to know the intimate contents of someone's device at the border. At most, x-ray the device to ensure it's not a bomb, otherwise stay the fuck out of my personal business.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      I'm arguing that we shouldn't expect more privacy simply because we've started storing our secrets electronically instead of on paper. Even in 1973 people had private info they didn't want the government to see, yet the Court decided other concerns overrode the Fourth Amendment.
thomastjeffery 10y ago
> there's no reason why a phone or laptop should be immune to search while suitcases and briefcases aren't. I can fit several lethal weapons inside a [suit,brief]case. The data on my phone is not a lethal weapon. The entire purpose of searching luggage is to prevent someone from bringing a lethal weapon into a group of people who are physically incapable of leaving. My cell phone's data contains literally zero threats to those around me.