6 ms·

> Read wikipedia for a mostly objective account You don't actually believe that, do you? Wikipedia is so left-leaning it virtually capsizes.

Chris2048 10y ago
I'd argue that Wikipedia isn't left, but it's focus of published media, and the fact that much of the American media is left, causes this effect.
- alphapapa 10y ago
  That's a good point, and you're probably right that a lot of it is due to that. I would add my anecdotal observations that, whenever I have looked at the edit history and talk pages for anything remotely political, the non-left views are virtually shouted down and literally edited out ad nauseam. The editors by-and-large seem to have a strong left-leaning ideology.
edc117 10y ago
Do you have any sourced information that suggests what is on Wikipedia is wrong? I'd love to hear it if so.
- alphapapa 10y ago
  > Do you have any sourced information that suggests what is on Wikipedia is wrong? Are you implying that everything on Wikipedia is correct? > I'd love to hear it if so. This implies that you've never read anything negative about Wikipedia. I feel like, if that's the case, you must either have avoided such information, or have just gotten Internet access for the first time. If you would honestly love to hear it, then you could have already found it by using Google. Please avoid sea-lioning.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    The implication is that they've never read any sourced information about bias on Wikipedia, not that they've never read anything negative about Wikipedia. Certainly we've all read plenty of opinion and insinuation, but factual analysis is harder to come by, not just for this question, but for all questions. It's a pretty good rule of thumb that you can't do a simple Google for factual information on a hot topic, because your results will be drowned out by opinionated noise. So your implication that you can find this "by using Google" immediately makes me think that you haven't actually seen any yourself, but are parroting opinions you've read. I haven't seen any objective analyses of Wikipedia's bias myself, but this isn't something I look for information on, and I suspect they exist somewhere. Edit: I didn't know what sea-lioning was, so I just looked it up. Asking for sources when someone makes a broad claim doesn't seem to fit the definition.
    - alphapapa 10y ago
      I disagree. "Sourced information" is arbitrary, vague, and ultimately meaningless. All information is "sourced," and each person must come to their own conclusions about the validity of information. Finally, while an objective study of factual accuracy might be feasible, any study of political bias would necessarily be subjective, because despite any attempted rigor, it ultimately boils down to the researcher's judgment. Therefore, believing that Wikipedia must be unbiased unless it can be objectively proven to be biased is unreasonable. On the contrary: since Wikipedia is made by humans, and humans are necessarily biased, it must be biased. > So your implication that you can find this "by using Google" immediately makes me think that you haven't actually seen any yourself, but are parroting opinions you've read. I haven't seen any objective analyses of Wikipedia's bias myself, but this isn't something I look for information on, and I suspect they exist somewhere. Fascinating: you make an unwarranted assumption about me, then accuse me of parroting, and then admit that you yourself have neglected to even attempt the most basic search. You seem to be accusing me of what you have convicted yourself of. I perceive two definitions of sea-lioning, one of which is attempting to provoke by making demands for sources which meet arbitrary standards. It's typically followed by moving the goalposts until the respondent gives up, after which the sea-lion asserts victory. In other words, it's a form of trolling, not of serious discussion. Given the nature of the argument (whether Wikipedia is biased is necessarily subjective), and the arbitrary standard ("sourced information"), I conclude that it's sea-lioning. You're free to disagree.

Chris2048 10y ago

I'd argue that Wikipedia isn't left, but it's focus of published media, and the fact that much of the American media is left, causes this effect.

alphapapa 10y ago
That's a good point, and you're probably right that a lot of it is due to that. I would add my anecdotal observations that, whenever I have looked at the edit history and talk pages for anything remotely political, the non-left views are virtually shouted down and literally edited out ad nauseam. The editors by-and-large seem to have a strong left-leaning ideology.

edc117 10y ago

Do you have any sourced information that suggests what is on Wikipedia is wrong? I'd love to hear it if so.

alphapapa 10y ago
> Do you have any sourced information that suggests what is on Wikipedia is wrong? Are you implying that everything on Wikipedia is correct? > I'd love to hear it if so. This implies that you've never read anything negative about Wikipedia. I feel like, if that's the case, you must either have avoided such information, or have just gotten Internet access for the first time. If you would honestly love to hear it, then you could have already found it by using Google. Please avoid sea-lioning.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  The implication is that they've never read any sourced information about bias on Wikipedia, not that they've never read anything negative about Wikipedia. Certainly we've all read plenty of opinion and insinuation, but factual analysis is harder to come by, not just for this question, but for all questions. It's a pretty good rule of thumb that you can't do a simple Google for factual information on a hot topic, because your results will be drowned out by opinionated noise. So your implication that you can find this "by using Google" immediately makes me think that you haven't actually seen any yourself, but are parroting opinions you've read. I haven't seen any objective analyses of Wikipedia's bias myself, but this isn't something I look for information on, and I suspect they exist somewhere. Edit: I didn't know what sea-lioning was, so I just looked it up. Asking for sources when someone makes a broad claim doesn't seem to fit the definition.
  - alphapapa 10y ago
    I disagree. "Sourced information" is arbitrary, vague, and ultimately meaningless. All information is "sourced," and each person must come to their own conclusions about the validity of information. Finally, while an objective study of factual accuracy might be feasible, any study of political bias would necessarily be subjective, because despite any attempted rigor, it ultimately boils down to the researcher's judgment. Therefore, believing that Wikipedia must be unbiased unless it can be objectively proven to be biased is unreasonable. On the contrary: since Wikipedia is made by humans, and humans are necessarily biased, it must be biased. > So your implication that you can find this "by using Google" immediately makes me think that you haven't actually seen any yourself, but are parroting opinions you've read. I haven't seen any objective analyses of Wikipedia's bias myself, but this isn't something I look for information on, and I suspect they exist somewhere. Fascinating: you make an unwarranted assumption about me, then accuse me of parroting, and then admit that you yourself have neglected to even attempt the most basic search. You seem to be accusing me of what you have convicted yourself of. I perceive two definitions of sea-lioning, one of which is attempting to provoke by making demands for sources which meet arbitrary standards. It's typically followed by moving the goalposts until the respondent gives up, after which the sea-lion asserts victory. In other words, it's a form of trolling, not of serious discussion. Given the nature of the argument (whether Wikipedia is biased is necessarily subjective), and the arbitrary standard ("sourced information"), I conclude that it's sea-lioning. You're free to disagree.