6 ms·

Apple admits the Mac Pro was a mess

70 points by miles 10y ago

externalities88 10y ago
What an overly dramatic headline for an "admission" of "we designed ourselves into a thermal corner". It's a slick piece of design and engineering. It has limitations and limited commercial appeal. Was thinking about a design for the new one. Blend Mac Mini and the pro together as a stackable design. Stack two top end Minis, and a dual chip graphics box to get a Pro spec desktop. Others have tried it to limited success. Apple could make it work.
djs070 10y ago
The linked Daring Fireball article[1] is a lot more interesting and informative [1] http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  Also, nothing in the Daring Fireball article (the author of which was actually present at the meeting with Apple) supports anything nearly as juicy as "Apple admits the Mac Pro was a mess".
  - amaks 10y ago
    Not surprising given the reputation of Daring Fireball to be an Apple fan boy.
    - jakelazaroff 10y ago
      Or The Verge is just trying to grab attention with a sensationalist clickbait headline?
jostmey 10y ago
Apple's entire desktop environment and lineup is a mess. I'm using windows 10 and couldn't be happier. I feel like I've played ping-pong over the years, bouncing back and forth between windows and apple. XP was okay, windows 7 was terrible. MacOS was amazing at the time, but whatever MacOS I have right now keeps crashing. Now I'm back to microsoft with windows 10
webwielder2 10y ago
Three related but not dependent things keep getting conflated: 1. The trash can design was not able to accommodate much heat variance and so was not updatable. 2. The trash can Mac Pro didn't suit some pro needs because of lack of graphics card and internal storage upgradability. 3. Dual graphics cards with an emphasis on OpenCL was the wrong direction to go in.
- valuearb 10y ago
  I think they got in a paralyzed state waiting for the right set of new GPUs and CPUs they could update it with, and took far too long before they could admit the design was too inflexible.
mixmastamyk 10y ago
Second article and I still don't understand why they can't at least do a spec bump every year. If not possible due to suppliers a price drop should at least grab some market share. With the resources Apple has, anything else is simple negligence.
- cycomachead 10y ago
  Engineers, and especially the hardware kind, are a limited resource. Not that Apple couldn't spend even more than they currently are on growth, but they're reaching some limits, and until later this year office space is/will be one of them. This is combined with the fact that the Mac Pro sells in the "low single digit" percentage range of Mac sales means that it's hard to justify an outsized expense. When factoring in R&D costs, my guess is the Mac Pro has much lower margins than other Macs.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    That kind of "accountant" style thinking has brought them to the brink with developers and media pros. Killing off the development platform for your successful products is incredibly shortsighted.
  - jsmthrowaway 10y ago
    Rest assured office space will remain a challenge even after this year. Take a spin around Mathilda and Maude.
  - valuearb 10y ago
    Every single digit of mac unit sales the Mac Pro constitutes is $700M+ in yearly revenues.
- karlshea 10y ago
  On the Accidental Tech Podcast from the other day it was hinted they heard rumors that Apple engineers did try and do some spec bumps, but they kept running into thermal problems no matter what they tried. I guess they were really really close to the edge with that design, and Marco said he's heard those GPUs are failing from heat issues fairly often.
tracker1 10y ago
I'm not entirely sure why Apple doesn't just use ITX or mATX motherboard layouts for its pro line, and bring back a "Mac" regular line. Yes, potentially someone could by an "Apple" genuine repair motherboard and DIY their own, but that would make a lot of people happier.... then also make best of breed cases, that can only be had with a full Mac or Mac Pro. Yeah, it would potentially cut into their margins on mac hardware for pros.. but they aren't making much money there... the best bet is to keep the pros making content for their mobile devices happy. Edit: Also, even if they charged a $300 "core" fee that's refunded when you turn in your old motherboard (assuming boards are sold for replacement), that would cover the "OS License" costs for those that are doing it on their own. Apple still makes money, but keeps the third parties to a minimum.
- rangibaby 10y ago
  Bring back the cheese grater!
  - justinator 10y ago
    That's really not a bad idea. The Macbook I'm using now looks pretty similar to the Macbook I was using when those towers were still in production - even the G5 version. I'm sure people are making FrakenMacs using this enclosure using old, broken Ebay'd enclosures and cheap off the shelf parts that creme the official Mac.
    - rangibaby 10y ago
      I've seen someone do exactly that before. FINALLY a use for a G5 ;-) (other than heating your house up)
    - dragonshed 10y ago
      > I'm sure people are making FrakenMacs using this enclosure using old, broken Ebay'd enclosures and cheap off the shelf parts that creme the official Mac. Yup. I was eyeballing these [1] for exactly that purpose... [1] https://www.thelaserhive.com/product-category/g5conv/ https://www.thelaserhive.com/product-category/g5conv/
terminado 10y ago
It's just that it's not worth $4,000 or even $3,000. The trashcan is cool, despite looking like a trashcan, but way too expensive for what you get. Something at that price needs to last, and permit upgrades. For what you get, and what you can do with it, it's not worth more than $1,000. Many Apple fans buy for status though, and Apple knows this, hence the watch. So, simply having the price tag as an ornament works for some people.
- karlshea 10y ago
  Right now it's not worth more than $1,000. When it was released it was competitive with other workstation-class desktops. $3–4k is a normal price for that kind of hardware, it's not trying to compete with a Dell Inspiron.
  - terminado 10y ago
    Even so, even if you bought the most expensive model for Christmas in 2013, it's a raw deal simply because the hardware profile is that of a fixed appliance. At that price, other high-end professional workstations ship with beneficial options such as hard copies of offline-installable Operating System software, that does not require an internet connection. User-servicable parts, and expansion kits are normal. Variety and options are left open, to aid the owner in upgrading or altering the stock model. Professionals pay extra, to acquire versatile high-quality base units that they possess the skill to alter themselves, according to their preferred tasks. Microsoft is experiencing the exact same sort of backlash against Windows 10, with too much phoning home, and network activity that flouts user consent. As a professional, one expects an outfitter to appreciate the technical capacity for their clientele to negotiate complexity. One also expects a professional tool to perform exactly the task required, and only the task required, and nothing extra. As a company Apple does not do this anymore. They sell fixed hardware profiles, and refuse alterations. They discourage meddling with low-level operating system components. The software is free, but you couldn't buy an offline copy if you tried. Apple's hardware policies have changed. The machine you buy from Apple now, will not be upgraded by Apple, even with Apple parts, and in most cases has been engineered to prevent alteration at the expense of the unit. For example, Apple will not assist in upgrading from a 128GB SSD stick, to a 2TB SSD stick, even if they sell new models off the shelf with the same hardware profile. Doing so yourself will exclude a machine from receiving service at an Apple store. Appliances are sold to lock in consumers, and coerce behavior. A professional selects equipment to enable activity, not to play into a business model.
barryp 10y ago
I hope somebody at Apple can get it through their heads that a Mac Pro desktop doesn't need to be the thinnest, lightest box full of the most exotic parts with corners engineered to within fractions of a millimeter. It just needs to: 1. Run macOS 2. be fast as hell 3. be quiet 4. be reasonably priced 5. be somewhat expandable on the inside with RAM and disks 6. have a variety of external ports 7. be spec-bumped at least once a year. Do that and you'll sell units, and more importantly keep devs and creative types happy
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  That's exactly it.
- karlshea 10y ago
  This is literally all I want. I'll even buy what will undoubtedly be an overpriced 8k monitor that they'll be selling along with it, instead of a new iMac. I do not care what the box looks like.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  I would buy two of these today.
- ux-app 10y ago
  Just bite the bullet and hackintosh. It's ridiculously easy. I put one together in an afternoon with parts I had lying around. It even had GPU acceleration for all those silly UI animations to run smoothly. There are lists of hardware that are guaranteed to work. I'm not a Mac guy so I scrapped the system, but as a bored weekend project it was fun. I had no issues installing updates, networking was fine etc.
  - AdamJacobMuller 10y ago
    I tried this a year or so ago, my only stumbling block was getting iMessage/iCloud working properly, which was very difficult, has that improved?
m0llusk 10y ago
Now when will "The Verge" admit this is clickbait?
Yeroc 10y ago
I just wish they'd admit the same for the latest Macbook Pro where they appear to be optimizing for things that pros don't care about and removing things they do care about!
- valuearb 10y ago
  The new Macbook Pro has record sales, so no.
  - chrisbennet 10y ago
    You're right in that they won't admit they made a mistake because; in the short term, their decision made more money. "Higher sales" is orthogonal to what software development professionals want. They discontinued the Pro version and put the "Pro" name on a "consumer" version as far a software developers are concerned I think.
frik 10y ago
I don't get why we see so much negative about Apple here on HN. Yes, they made some wrong decisions. But the OS (macOS) is still the same, and most pro use an iMac nowadays. On the otherside it looks grim if you eant to continue the PC pro path as Windows 10 just sends way to many data. I cannot imagine it's okay for anyone that locale docx, pdf and jpg files are sent to Redmond/Washington when Windows thinks it's about time (if a application crashes, gets unresponses or slow downs). Or I cannot imagine it's okay for anyone that Windows 10 sends a list of all music and video played, as well as the browser history and the speech-recognition text-results in plain text to Redmond. (You don't believe, well read their recently released documentation!!) Every other company would face a outcry and be called adware and spyware. Yet Windows 10 gets away? Why? Mac is still way better.
tempodox 10y ago
I think the article sums it up really well. And I doubt we'll ever see something as extensible as the cheese grater models again. Apple has convinced me by now they dont't want to make anything but throwaway appliances with fashion appeal.

70 points by miles 10y ago

What an overly dramatic headline for an "admission" of "we designed ourselves into a thermal corner". It's a slick piece of design and engineering. It has limitations and limited commercial appeal. Was thinking about a design for the new one. Blend Mac Mini and the pro together as a stackable design. Stack two top end Minis, and a dual chip graphics box to get a Pro spec desktop. Others have tried it to limited success. Apple could make it work.

djs070 10y ago

The linked Daring Fireball article[1] is a lot more interesting and informative [1] http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives

jakelazaroff 10y ago
Also, nothing in the Daring Fireball article (the author of which was actually present at the meeting with Apple) supports anything nearly as juicy as "Apple admits the Mac Pro was a mess".
- amaks 10y ago
  Not surprising given the reputation of Daring Fireball to be an Apple fan boy.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    Or The Verge is just trying to grab attention with a sensationalist clickbait headline?

jostmey 10y ago

Apple's entire desktop environment and lineup is a mess. I'm using windows 10 and couldn't be happier. I feel like I've played ping-pong over the years, bouncing back and forth between windows and apple. XP was okay, windows 7 was terrible. MacOS was amazing at the time, but whatever MacOS I have right now keeps crashing. Now I'm back to microsoft with windows 10

webwielder2 10y ago

Three related but not dependent things keep getting conflated: 1. The trash can design was not able to accommodate much heat variance and so was not updatable. 2. The trash can Mac Pro didn't suit some pro needs because of lack of graphics card and internal storage upgradability. 3. Dual graphics cards with an emphasis on OpenCL was the wrong direction to go in.

valuearb 10y ago
I think they got in a paralyzed state waiting for the right set of new GPUs and CPUs they could update it with, and took far too long before they could admit the design was too inflexible.

mixmastamyk 10y ago

Second article and I still don't understand why they can't at least do a spec bump every year. If not possible due to suppliers a price drop should at least grab some market share. With the resources Apple has, anything else is simple negligence.

cycomachead 10y ago
Engineers, and especially the hardware kind, are a limited resource. Not that Apple couldn't spend even more than they currently are on growth, but they're reaching some limits, and until later this year office space is/will be one of them. This is combined with the fact that the Mac Pro sells in the "low single digit" percentage range of Mac sales means that it's hard to justify an outsized expense. When factoring in R&D costs, my guess is the Mac Pro has much lower margins than other Macs.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  That kind of "accountant" style thinking has brought them to the brink with developers and media pros. Killing off the development platform for your successful products is incredibly shortsighted.
- jsmthrowaway 10y ago
  Rest assured office space will remain a challenge even after this year. Take a spin around Mathilda and Maude.
- valuearb 10y ago
  Every single digit of mac unit sales the Mac Pro constitutes is $700M+ in yearly revenues.
karlshea 10y ago
On the Accidental Tech Podcast from the other day it was hinted they heard rumors that Apple engineers did try and do some spec bumps, but they kept running into thermal problems no matter what they tried. I guess they were really really close to the edge with that design, and Marco said he's heard those GPUs are failing from heat issues fairly often.

tracker1 10y ago

I'm not entirely sure why Apple doesn't just use ITX or mATX motherboard layouts for its pro line, and bring back a "Mac" regular line. Yes, potentially someone could by an "Apple" genuine repair motherboard and DIY their own, but that would make a lot of people happier.... then also make best of breed cases, that can only be had with a full Mac or Mac Pro. Yeah, it would potentially cut into their margins on mac hardware for pros.. but they aren't making much money there... the best bet is to keep the pros making content for their mobile devices happy. Edit: Also, even if they charged a $300 "core" fee that's refunded when you turn in your old motherboard (assuming boards are sold for replacement), that would cover the "OS License" costs for those that are doing it on their own. Apple still makes money, but keeps the third parties to a minimum.

rangibaby 10y ago
Bring back the cheese grater!
- justinator 10y ago
  That's really not a bad idea. The Macbook I'm using now looks pretty similar to the Macbook I was using when those towers were still in production - even the G5 version. I'm sure people are making FrakenMacs using this enclosure using old, broken Ebay'd enclosures and cheap off the shelf parts that creme the official Mac.
  - rangibaby 10y ago
    I've seen someone do exactly that before. FINALLY a use for a G5 ;-) (other than heating your house up)
  - dragonshed 10y ago
    > I'm sure people are making FrakenMacs using this enclosure using old, broken Ebay'd enclosures and cheap off the shelf parts that creme the official Mac. Yup. I was eyeballing these [1] for exactly that purpose... [1] https://www.thelaserhive.com/product-category/g5conv/ https://www.thelaserhive.com/product-category/g5conv/

terminado 10y ago

It's just that it's not worth $4,000 or even $3,000. The trashcan is cool, despite looking like a trashcan, but way too expensive for what you get. Something at that price needs to last, and permit upgrades. For what you get, and what you can do with it, it's not worth more than $1,000. Many Apple fans buy for status though, and Apple knows this, hence the watch. So, simply having the price tag as an ornament works for some people.

karlshea 10y ago
Right now it's not worth more than $1,000. When it was released it was competitive with other workstation-class desktops. $3–4k is a normal price for that kind of hardware, it's not trying to compete with a Dell Inspiron.
- terminado 10y ago
  Even so, even if you bought the most expensive model for Christmas in 2013, it's a raw deal simply because the hardware profile is that of a fixed appliance. At that price, other high-end professional workstations ship with beneficial options such as hard copies of offline-installable Operating System software, that does not require an internet connection. User-servicable parts, and expansion kits are normal. Variety and options are left open, to aid the owner in upgrading or altering the stock model. Professionals pay extra, to acquire versatile high-quality base units that they possess the skill to alter themselves, according to their preferred tasks. Microsoft is experiencing the exact same sort of backlash against Windows 10, with too much phoning home, and network activity that flouts user consent. As a professional, one expects an outfitter to appreciate the technical capacity for their clientele to negotiate complexity. One also expects a professional tool to perform exactly the task required, and only the task required, and nothing extra. As a company Apple does not do this anymore. They sell fixed hardware profiles, and refuse alterations. They discourage meddling with low-level operating system components. The software is free, but you couldn't buy an offline copy if you tried. Apple's hardware policies have changed. The machine you buy from Apple now, will not be upgraded by Apple, even with Apple parts, and in most cases has been engineered to prevent alteration at the expense of the unit. For example, Apple will not assist in upgrading from a 128GB SSD stick, to a 2TB SSD stick, even if they sell new models off the shelf with the same hardware profile. Doing so yourself will exclude a machine from receiving service at an Apple store. Appliances are sold to lock in consumers, and coerce behavior. A professional selects equipment to enable activity, not to play into a business model.

barryp 10y ago

I hope somebody at Apple can get it through their heads that a Mac Pro desktop doesn't need to be the thinnest, lightest box full of the most exotic parts with corners engineered to within fractions of a millimeter. It just needs to: 1. Run macOS 2. be fast as hell 3. be quiet 4. be reasonably priced 5. be somewhat expandable on the inside with RAM and disks 6. have a variety of external ports 7. be spec-bumped at least once a year. Do that and you'll sell units, and more importantly keep devs and creative types happy

maxxxxx 10y ago
That's exactly it.
karlshea 10y ago
This is literally all I want. I'll even buy what will undoubtedly be an overpriced 8k monitor that they'll be selling along with it, instead of a new iMac. I do not care what the box looks like.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
I would buy two of these today.
ux-app 10y ago
Just bite the bullet and hackintosh. It's ridiculously easy. I put one together in an afternoon with parts I had lying around. It even had GPU acceleration for all those silly UI animations to run smoothly. There are lists of hardware that are guaranteed to work. I'm not a Mac guy so I scrapped the system, but as a bored weekend project it was fun. I had no issues installing updates, networking was fine etc.
- AdamJacobMuller 10y ago
  I tried this a year or so ago, my only stumbling block was getting iMessage/iCloud working properly, which was very difficult, has that improved?

m0llusk 10y ago

Now when will "The Verge" admit this is clickbait?

Yeroc 10y ago

I just wish they'd admit the same for the latest Macbook Pro where they appear to be optimizing for things that pros don't care about and removing things they do care about!

valuearb 10y ago
The new Macbook Pro has record sales, so no.
- chrisbennet 10y ago
  You're right in that they won't admit they made a mistake because; in the short term, their decision made more money. "Higher sales" is orthogonal to what software development professionals want. They discontinued the Pro version and put the "Pro" name on a "consumer" version as far a software developers are concerned I think.

frik 10y ago

I don't get why we see so much negative about Apple here on HN. Yes, they made some wrong decisions. But the OS (macOS) is still the same, and most pro use an iMac nowadays. On the otherside it looks grim if you eant to continue the PC pro path as Windows 10 just sends way to many data. I cannot imagine it's okay for anyone that locale docx, pdf and jpg files are sent to Redmond/Washington when Windows thinks it's about time (if a application crashes, gets unresponses or slow downs). Or I cannot imagine it's okay for anyone that Windows 10 sends a list of all music and video played, as well as the browser history and the speech-recognition text-results in plain text to Redmond. (You don't believe, well read their recently released documentation!!) Every other company would face a outcry and be called adware and spyware. Yet Windows 10 gets away? Why? Mac is still way better.

tempodox 10y ago

I think the article sums it up really well. And I doubt we'll ever see something as extensible as the cheese grater models again. Apple has convinced me by now they dont't want to make anything but throwaway appliances with fashion appeal.