3 ms·

Would you agree the "describing" issue you raise is the same as "English can describe what it feels like to be pinched, but cannot make you feel a pinch"? No do

Would you agree the "describing" issue you raise is the same as "English can describe what it feels like to be pinched, but cannot make you feel a pinch"? No dolphins are needed, it's the issue of qualia. A universal language can express anything that can be expressed in language. If qualia are outside the realm of language, that wouldn't make English less universal. You may say dolphins use a language, and then feel qualia in response. Similarly, we can imagine a human who is genetically engineered for his skin to pinch when he hears certain sounds, so that he would feel the pinching quale. I think in neither case should triggering hardware features by sound be considered language. A nice example is "clap on" devices -- surely that's not language.

illumin8 16y ago
I'm not sure I agree. You may describe an underwater setting by saying "there is a clump of seaweed floating 3 meters above , 10 meters in front of, and 2 meters to the left of your current location, and a shark hiding about 20 meters behind the clump of seaweed", but it's much more efficient for you to send me a JPEG image of it, or better yet, a 3d image of it. I think this is how most scientists believe that dolphins communicate. This is sort of like the difference between playing a text game like Zork or a 3D MMO like World of Warcraft. English only descriptions leave the details up to your imagination. 3d graphic imagery communicates the actual picture.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  You could read out each byte of a jpeg to someone (or invent a different format in pure English). That is an example of an English description that leaves no details up to your imagination (that aren't also left up to your imagination by jpeg). Further, really detailed and well written prose can describe 3d scenes -- and help the reader visualize them -- better than everyday photographs, 3d computers renderings, what dolphins have, etc... There is no limit to how much detail prose can include. As a practical matter, we do not use English to its full capacity, and it's inefficient for some things, but still it is universal.
illumin8 16y ago
Perhaps if we redefine language to include data communications protocols, and the only difference is in how the protocols are interpreted by the receiving device, I can agree with you.
troystribling 16y ago
Similar to tines thought speech in "Fire Upon the Deep".

illumin8 16y ago

I'm not sure I agree. You may describe an underwater setting by saying "there is a clump of seaweed floating 3 meters above , 10 meters in front of, and 2 meters to the left of your current location, and a shark hiding about 20 meters behind the clump of seaweed", but it's much more efficient for you to send me a JPEG image of it, or better yet, a 3d image of it. I think this is how most scientists believe that dolphins communicate. This is sort of like the difference between playing a text game like Zork or a 3D MMO like World of Warcraft. English only descriptions leave the details up to your imagination. 3d graphic imagery communicates the actual picture.

xenophanes 16y ago
You could read out each byte of a jpeg to someone (or invent a different format in pure English). That is an example of an English description that leaves no details up to your imagination (that aren't also left up to your imagination by jpeg). Further, really detailed and well written prose can describe 3d scenes -- and help the reader visualize them -- better than everyday photographs, 3d computers renderings, what dolphins have, etc... There is no limit to how much detail prose can include. As a practical matter, we do not use English to its full capacity, and it's inefficient for some things, but still it is universal.

illumin8 16y ago

Perhaps if we redefine language to include data communications protocols, and the only difference is in how the protocols are interpreted by the receiving device, I can agree with you.

troystribling 16y ago

Similar to tines thought speech in "Fire Upon the Deep".