4 ms·

We don't pay them well so we get what we pay for. The exceptions are those that love to teach and love students. You can't run an organization via exceptions ho

We don't pay them well so we get what we pay for. The exceptions are those that love to teach and love students. You can't run an organization via exceptions however. It's really a shame we don't value education more.

noxToken 10y ago
> It's really a shame we don't value education more. This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole. We just don't care (as a whole) about education for others outside of our sphere. When you have the ability to move to better school system or to pay for private school attendance, you have no need to improve public schools. Not all public school systems are bad. I image that everyone can think of one relatively close school that they can unequivocally call a good/great school system where they expect most student to exceed by some set of positive metrics As long as the people who can fix it (no matter if its more staff, better pay, better resources or whatever change necessary) can place their children into C-Level Preparatory Academy, Dumpster Fire High School probably won't see much improvement.
- abraves10001 10y ago
  > This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole Everything you wrote after that sounds exactly like we don't value education as a whole. We individually value getting a good education but far too frequently ignore how education as a whole is beneficial to society.
  - noxToken 10y ago
    I guess I misspoke. You understood what I mean in the end, so I guess mission accomplished?
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole. That's a bunch of crap. If we (Americans) valued education as a whole, we wouldn't vote for leaders who continually cut education budgets. It's very simple: we as a society do not care about education. It's not a top political issue ever, unlike abortion, defense spending, guns, and who uses what bathroom. We keep school funding and administration at the local level because we don't want "our money" going to "those kids" (i.e. poor kids) in some other district, so we all end up with terrible schools and horribly inconsistent results school-to-school. Public education in this country is completely broken, and there's absolutely no political will to change it, and voters don't make it an issue because they're more worried about Planned Parenthood and terrorists.
  - noxToken 10y ago
    I misspoke. The sibling comment summed up what I meant: > We individually value getting a good education but far too frequently ignore how education as a whole is beneficial to society.
  - areyousure 10y ago
    Some context in case anyone is curious: Education is the third-biggest item of (combined) US government spending, after healthcare and pensions. Defense is fourth. It accounts for roughly 15% of total spending and 5% of GDP. I found this history of education spending informative regarding "leaders who continually cut education budgets": http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending Perhaps Politifact can be used as a barometer of "issues" during elections. They have rated 954 statements about education, 415 about guns, 390 about the military, 377 about terrorism, 316 about abortion, 64 about sexuality (including "bathroom bills"), and 20 or so about Planned Parenthood. Even statements about the federal budget in general (which include many of the previous issues) only totaled 938 items.
ballenf 10y ago
The pay is not the problem in most districts. Teacher pay is enough that getting a job at all but a few problem districts is pretty competitive. It also rewards extra degrees that have little if any value in more effective teaching. The system is setup very defensively to protect the problem teachers from responsibility.
- whyenot 10y ago
  > The pay is not the problem in most districts. It seems like it is less of a problem than it used to be. The biggest issue is that the districts with failing schools (who need the best, most experienced teachers) tend to be the districts least able to recruit those kinds of teachers. > The system is setup very defensively to protect the problem teachers from responsibility. The same system also protects the good teachers from problem parents and administrators.
r_smart 10y ago
Teachers in the US make more than the median salary, and get a ton of perks. The US spends more per student than any other developed world. I'd say we're paying plenty.
- Balgair 10y ago
  Source? What are these perks like? Also, teachers are paid in highly variable ways depending on state, school district, and union (if any). Saying that teachers get paid higher than average should be expected, considering they are usually required to have a bachelor's degree, pass many rounds of background checks continually, and (in many districts) must continue taking classes and gain education (similar to a nurse).
  - r_smart 10y ago
    Teacher salaries in 2013 (there's more data there than that, but whatever)[0]. Census data for the same year [1]. And lastly, per capita spending on students[2]. Perks teachers enjoy are variant as you mention, but tend to be solid. My GF is a teacher, her perks are: Contracted for 38 hours / week, 15 sick days a year that roll-over (I think there's some limit), something like 3 weeks of vacation during the school year, summer vacation, pension program, good health insurance, very difficult to be fired from the job. Also, when looking at teacher salary vs median, realize that they are working a lot less of the year than other people. I did the math between my GF and I and once you account for all her time off, she makes slightly less than I do. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.a... [1]: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/acs/acsbr13-02.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio... [2]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

noxToken 10y ago

> It's really a shame we don't value education more. This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole. We just don't care (as a whole) about education for others outside of our sphere. When you have the ability to move to better school system or to pay for private school attendance, you have no need to improve public schools. Not all public school systems are bad. I image that everyone can think of one relatively close school that they can unequivocally call a good/great school system where they expect most student to exceed by some set of positive metrics As long as the people who can fix it (no matter if its more staff, better pay, better resources or whatever change necessary) can place their children into C-Level Preparatory Academy, Dumpster Fire High School probably won't see much improvement.

abraves10001 10y ago
> This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole Everything you wrote after that sounds exactly like we don't value education as a whole. We individually value getting a good education but far too frequently ignore how education as a whole is beneficial to society.
- noxToken 10y ago
  I guess I misspoke. You understood what I mean in the end, so I guess mission accomplished?
Arizhel 10y ago
>This might sound nit-picky but I think we all (Americans) value education as a whole. That's a bunch of crap. If we (Americans) valued education as a whole, we wouldn't vote for leaders who continually cut education budgets. It's very simple: we as a society do not care about education. It's not a top political issue ever, unlike abortion, defense spending, guns, and who uses what bathroom. We keep school funding and administration at the local level because we don't want "our money" going to "those kids" (i.e. poor kids) in some other district, so we all end up with terrible schools and horribly inconsistent results school-to-school. Public education in this country is completely broken, and there's absolutely no political will to change it, and voters don't make it an issue because they're more worried about Planned Parenthood and terrorists.
- noxToken 10y ago
  I misspoke. The sibling comment summed up what I meant: > We individually value getting a good education but far too frequently ignore how education as a whole is beneficial to society.
- areyousure 10y ago
  Some context in case anyone is curious: Education is the third-biggest item of (combined) US government spending, after healthcare and pensions. Defense is fourth. It accounts for roughly 15% of total spending and 5% of GDP. I found this history of education spending informative regarding "leaders who continually cut education budgets": http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending Perhaps Politifact can be used as a barometer of "issues" during elections. They have rated 954 statements about education, 415 about guns, 390 about the military, 377 about terrorism, 316 about abortion, 64 about sexuality (including "bathroom bills"), and 20 or so about Planned Parenthood. Even statements about the federal budget in general (which include many of the previous issues) only totaled 938 items.

ballenf 10y ago

The pay is not the problem in most districts. Teacher pay is enough that getting a job at all but a few problem districts is pretty competitive. It also rewards extra degrees that have little if any value in more effective teaching. The system is setup very defensively to protect the problem teachers from responsibility.

whyenot 10y ago
> The pay is not the problem in most districts. It seems like it is less of a problem than it used to be. The biggest issue is that the districts with failing schools (who need the best, most experienced teachers) tend to be the districts least able to recruit those kinds of teachers. > The system is setup very defensively to protect the problem teachers from responsibility. The same system also protects the good teachers from problem parents and administrators.

r_smart 10y ago

Teachers in the US make more than the median salary, and get a ton of perks. The US spends more per student than any other developed world. I'd say we're paying plenty.

Balgair 10y ago
Source? What are these perks like? Also, teachers are paid in highly variable ways depending on state, school district, and union (if any). Saying that teachers get paid higher than average should be expected, considering they are usually required to have a bachelor's degree, pass many rounds of background checks continually, and (in many districts) must continue taking classes and gain education (similar to a nurse).
- r_smart 10y ago
  Teacher salaries in 2013 (there's more data there than that, but whatever)[0]. Census data for the same year [1]. And lastly, per capita spending on students[2]. Perks teachers enjoy are variant as you mention, but tend to be solid. My GF is a teacher, her perks are: Contracted for 38 hours / week, 15 sick days a year that roll-over (I think there's some limit), something like 3 weeks of vacation during the school year, summer vacation, pension program, good health insurance, very difficult to be fired from the job. Also, when looking at teacher salary vs median, realize that they are working a lot less of the year than other people. I did the math between my GF and I and once you account for all her time off, she makes slightly less than I do. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.a... [1]: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/acs/acsbr13-02.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio... [2]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp