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>Numerous studies on dolphin language show signs of advanced intelligence, and it is believed that the high-frequency sounds dolphins make underwater are capabl

by RevRal 16y ago

>Numerous studies on dolphin language show signs of advanced intelligence, and it is believed that the high-frequency sounds dolphins make underwater are capable of communicating information that is holographic in nature. Chris Foresman elaborates in the comments: The gist is that scientists are convinced that when one dolphin communicates with another, it is transmitting three-dimensional imagery, as opposed to speaking a "verbal" language as we think of it. This really reminded me of Grenouille, from the novel Perfume, who could think in "scent sentences." He lived his entire life isolated and frustrated with humanity, since he could not have a two way conversation with anyone in his language of scents. Strange to think that human communication represents only a small portion of what's possible.

xenophanes 16y ago
> Strange to think that human communication represents only a small portion of what's possible. But humans can communicate 3d scenes and imagery in words. Perhaps inelegantly. But universal turing machines do lots of things inelegantly and it doesn't really matter. English is universal language (taking into account its ability to define new words), so we're not missing out on anything fundamentally important (and nor are, e.g., the French missing out on anything fundamental by not speaking English: French is universal too).
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > English is universal language (taking into account its ability to define new words), so we're not missing out on anything fundamentally important (and nor are, e.g., the French missing out on anything fundamental by not speaking English: French is universal too). They're universal languages for people; for brains that specifically evolved to swing through trees, pick bugs out of our friends' fur, and to chase down antelopes. It's software that's pretty specific to the hardware. What if we just don't have enough in common with a critter that evolved in a fully 3D environment with no hands?
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    English is universal, period. It can reach into any new domain like theoretical physics or computer science. Its ability to deal with black holes or linked lists has nothing to do with picking bugs out of fur. English can also, of course, incorporate 1s and 0s and thus express anything that could be put into a computer (including a dolphin's brain, which is a computer). This would be horribly inelegant and slow, and I don't think it would ever come to that, but English is capable of doing it. Just like a universal computer is quite a simple and minimal thing, so is a universal language. This is a common theme about universality: as soon as you start to get a reasonable amount of generality in a system, you often find you've reached universality even if you didn't intend to. Universality will be discussed further in David Deutsch's upcoming book _The Beginning of Infinity_ which I highly recommend. The book also addresses the particular issue of the circumstances of evolution of our brain and whether that fundamentally limits us.
- illumin8 16y ago
  I don't think you mean the same thing when you say we can communicate 3d scenes and imagery in words. Humans can describe a 3d scene in words. Dolphins use such high-pitched and information dense communication that it's highly possible they are communicating raw data that is directly converted into a 3d map or image by the receiving dolphin's brain. Listen to a dolphin's speech, then think of what a 56k modem sounds like... not too far off huh? Now imagine that dolphins could communicate actual 3d maps or sonographic images using sound, rather than just describe them.
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    Would you agree the "describing" issue you raise is the same as "English can describe what it feels like to be pinched, but cannot make you feel a pinch"? No dolphins are needed, it's the issue of qualia. A universal language can express anything that can be expressed in language. If qualia are outside the realm of language, that wouldn't make English less universal. You may say dolphins use a language, and then feel qualia in response. Similarly, we can imagine a human who is genetically engineered for his skin to pinch when he hears certain sounds, so that he would feel the pinching quale. I think in neither case should triggering hardware features by sound be considered language. A nice example is "clap on" devices -- surely that's not language.
    - illumin8 16y ago
      I'm not sure I agree. You may describe an underwater setting by saying "there is a clump of seaweed floating 3 meters above , 10 meters in front of, and 2 meters to the left of your current location, and a shark hiding about 20 meters behind the clump of seaweed", but it's much more efficient for you to send me a JPEG image of it, or better yet, a 3d image of it. I think this is how most scientists believe that dolphins communicate. This is sort of like the difference between playing a text game like Zork or a 3D MMO like World of Warcraft. English only descriptions leave the details up to your imagination. 3d graphic imagery communicates the actual picture.
      - xenophanes 16y ago

by RevRal 16y ago

xenophanes 16y ago

> Strange to think that human communication represents only a small portion of what's possible. But humans can communicate 3d scenes and imagery in words. Perhaps inelegantly. But universal turing machines do lots of things inelegantly and it doesn't really matter. English is universal language (taking into account its ability to define new words), so we're not missing out on anything fundamentally important (and nor are, e.g., the French missing out on anything fundamental by not speaking English: French is universal too).

pavel_lishin 16y ago
> English is universal language (taking into account its ability to define new words), so we're not missing out on anything fundamentally important (and nor are, e.g., the French missing out on anything fundamental by not speaking English: French is universal too). They're universal languages for people; for brains that specifically evolved to swing through trees, pick bugs out of our friends' fur, and to chase down antelopes. It's software that's pretty specific to the hardware. What if we just don't have enough in common with a critter that evolved in a fully 3D environment with no hands?
- xenophanes 16y ago
  English is universal, period. It can reach into any new domain like theoretical physics or computer science. Its ability to deal with black holes or linked lists has nothing to do with picking bugs out of fur. English can also, of course, incorporate 1s and 0s and thus express anything that could be put into a computer (including a dolphin's brain, which is a computer). This would be horribly inelegant and slow, and I don't think it would ever come to that, but English is capable of doing it. Just like a universal computer is quite a simple and minimal thing, so is a universal language. This is a common theme about universality: as soon as you start to get a reasonable amount of generality in a system, you often find you've reached universality even if you didn't intend to. Universality will be discussed further in David Deutsch's upcoming book _The Beginning of Infinity_ which I highly recommend. The book also addresses the particular issue of the circumstances of evolution of our brain and whether that fundamentally limits us.
illumin8 16y ago
I don't think you mean the same thing when you say we can communicate 3d scenes and imagery in words. Humans can describe a 3d scene in words. Dolphins use such high-pitched and information dense communication that it's highly possible they are communicating raw data that is directly converted into a 3d map or image by the receiving dolphin's brain. Listen to a dolphin's speech, then think of what a 56k modem sounds like... not too far off huh? Now imagine that dolphins could communicate actual 3d maps or sonographic images using sound, rather than just describe them.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Would you agree the "describing" issue you raise is the same as "English can describe what it feels like to be pinched, but cannot make you feel a pinch"? No dolphins are needed, it's the issue of qualia. A universal language can express anything that can be expressed in language. If qualia are outside the realm of language, that wouldn't make English less universal. You may say dolphins use a language, and then feel qualia in response. Similarly, we can imagine a human who is genetically engineered for his skin to pinch when he hears certain sounds, so that he would feel the pinching quale. I think in neither case should triggering hardware features by sound be considered language. A nice example is "clap on" devices -- surely that's not language.
  - illumin8 16y ago
    I'm not sure I agree. You may describe an underwater setting by saying "there is a clump of seaweed floating 3 meters above , 10 meters in front of, and 2 meters to the left of your current location, and a shark hiding about 20 meters behind the clump of seaweed", but it's much more efficient for you to send me a JPEG image of it, or better yet, a 3d image of it. I think this is how most scientists believe that dolphins communicate. This is sort of like the difference between playing a text game like Zork or a 3D MMO like World of Warcraft. English only descriptions leave the details up to your imagination. 3d graphic imagery communicates the actual picture.
    - xenophanes 16y ago