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Apple gives a guarantee. Not an "Your system might run for x months." But an "Your system WILL run for x months." Even if the error is not caused by apple, they

by Radle 10y ago

Apple gives a guarantee. Not an "Your system might run for x months." But an "Your system WILL run for x months." Even if the error is not caused by apple, they take in 99% of the profits that comes with selling and repairing the devices. They can take some responsibility for third party fails, in cases where they can't proof that other people actually failed. That's a very limited scope.

Ntrails 10y ago
No, they guarantee that where proper care is taken the device will run for x months. If you try to use it underwater they won't repair it for free, and if you have it repaired by a non approved party they won't repair it for free. Both represent "misuse"
- mikeash 10y ago
  That's probably how they want to do it, but it's not how the law requires them to do it. They must still repair it for free unless the underwater use or third-party repair caused the problem. They cannot say, "somebody else touched this, so tough luck." If they can demonstrate that your problem is a result of someone else touching it, then they can say tough luck. If they can't, then they have to fix it even if you didn't do things the way they want you to. I think it's important to remember that these consumer protections aren't some random government overreach. They were put in place as a reaction to abuses by manufacturers. Without them, we'd probably have Apple charging $50 for a charger, with the threat of voiding your warranty if you use an unapproved charger, or similar tactics. To bring it into another realm where the problem might be more obvious, imagine if your car manufacturer could void your warranty if you installed unapproved (and un-overpriced) tires or brake pads. Again, if those tires or brake pads cause your problem then they don't have to fix it, but they can't just void your warranty because of their mere presence.
  - Ntrails 10y ago
    Oh, I agree, my point was that the guarantee of "free repair" is contingent on terms not just a blanket statement. They are required to take it in under guarantee to look at it but when they open it up and water starts leaking out they're going to stop and send you a bill. The interesting part of it is how hard it would be to prove them wrong if they say it could have been caused by behaviour x. Eg, if I chip my car and run it at non stock settings - the manufacturer can probably attribute almost any issue at all to that and I'd be hard pressed to disprove that assertion.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Good to hear! I see a lot of people who don't understand the distinction and think that you can lose your entire warranty if you do something wrong, and I (incorrectly, obviously) thought you were talking like that. The question of proof is an interesting one. I guess that, like most things, it'll come down to who's willing and able to prove their case in court, or convince the other side they can't win. That's one reason I find this case to be interesting. Companies often try really hard to mislead customers about their rights, which seems to be why so many people think you can void your entire warranty by making a small change. They usually get away with it as long as they cave in when they encounter someone who actually knows their rights. But all those people who don't know get screwed over.

by Radle 10y ago

Ntrails 10y ago

No, they guarantee that where proper care is taken the device will run for x months. If you try to use it underwater they won't repair it for free, and if you have it repaired by a non approved party they won't repair it for free. Both represent "misuse"

mikeash 10y ago
That's probably how they want to do it, but it's not how the law requires them to do it. They must still repair it for free unless the underwater use or third-party repair caused the problem. They cannot say, "somebody else touched this, so tough luck." If they can demonstrate that your problem is a result of someone else touching it, then they can say tough luck. If they can't, then they have to fix it even if you didn't do things the way they want you to. I think it's important to remember that these consumer protections aren't some random government overreach. They were put in place as a reaction to abuses by manufacturers. Without them, we'd probably have Apple charging $50 for a charger, with the threat of voiding your warranty if you use an unapproved charger, or similar tactics. To bring it into another realm where the problem might be more obvious, imagine if your car manufacturer could void your warranty if you installed unapproved (and un-overpriced) tires or brake pads. Again, if those tires or brake pads cause your problem then they don't have to fix it, but they can't just void your warranty because of their mere presence.
- Ntrails 10y ago
  Oh, I agree, my point was that the guarantee of "free repair" is contingent on terms not just a blanket statement. They are required to take it in under guarantee to look at it but when they open it up and water starts leaking out they're going to stop and send you a bill. The interesting part of it is how hard it would be to prove them wrong if they say it could have been caused by behaviour x. Eg, if I chip my car and run it at non stock settings - the manufacturer can probably attribute almost any issue at all to that and I'd be hard pressed to disprove that assertion.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Good to hear! I see a lot of people who don't understand the distinction and think that you can lose your entire warranty if you do something wrong, and I (incorrectly, obviously) thought you were talking like that. The question of proof is an interesting one. I guess that, like most things, it'll come down to who's willing and able to prove their case in court, or convince the other side they can't win. That's one reason I find this case to be interesting. Companies often try really hard to mislead customers about their rights, which seems to be why so many people think you can void your entire warranty by making a small change. They usually get away with it as long as they cave in when they encounter someone who actually knows their rights. But all those people who don't know get screwed over.