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> I'm glad Subaru doesn't deny me service because I put an aftermarket stereo or used a different garage to repair my headlights. This is not analogous. The an

> I'm glad Subaru doesn't deny me service because I put an aftermarket stereo or used a different garage to repair my headlights. This is not analogous. The analogy here is that the aftermarket stereo or different garage caused the faults which your Subaru is experiencing, and you are expecting Subaru to fix them. Predatory pricing is a separate issue, but this is about whether Apple is obliged to make good on repairs to devices (both under warranty and at cost) where widespread component failure could have been caused by another repair shop or component. Would Subaru repair your engine if it stopped working after you replaced the camshaft with a different type of camshaft?

disordinary 10y ago
No, it clearly states that the apple is liable for faults that the aftermarket part didn't cause. Any faults with the aftermarket part or faults caused by that repair are the responsibility for the person who installed the aftermarket part. The example is relevant.
- georgespencer 10y ago
  The point the post illustrated is that an aftermarket part and/or an inexpert repair job could cause widespread damage to other components, and at times do so imperceptibly.
  - ksk 10y ago
    Can you give a practical example of such a thing happening in anything except the rarest of rarest case? If you're always concerned with what's possible, then you'll find that anythings possible, and soon you're buying insurance against a meteor strike damaging your car :P Also lets not forget that legal frameworks are perfectly capable of handling exceptional circumstances. So even if it was the case that the part caused damage to other parts, it would be an argument that a court would be sympathetic to.
    - georgespencer 10y ago
      > Can you give a practical example of such a thing happening in anything except the rarest of rarest case? This happens _all_the_time_. Especially in complex precision-engineered electronics products. If a third-party repair shop is making repairs using Apple certified components then that's fine. If it's any aftermarket component then clearly Apple should not have any sort of responsibility to the device, which has been fundamentally altered.
mikeash 10y ago
In your first paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair is responsible for the fault. In the second paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair could have been responsible for the fault. These are not the same. Apple is not legally obligated to repair a device that's been damaged by a third-party repair, and nobody is saying they should be. Apple is legally obligated to repair a defective device, even if it has been repaired by a third party, unless the defect was caused by that repair. They can't just say "this could have been caused by the third party, so we're not going to look at it." They have to actually figure it out.
- georgespencer 10y ago
  > In the second paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair could have been responsible for the fault. No. Perhaps I could have been clearer, but the emphasis in that sentence is on 'widespread', not on 'could'. Which is to say that third party repairs can do significantly more damage, and if you have your TouchID sensor replaced or repaired by a third party, and a connected component fails, Apple may rightfully feel aggrieved if they're on the hook. The component may have failed anyway, but it also might be due to the third party repair or unofficial component. > They can't just say "this could have been caused by the third party, so we're not going to look at it." They have to actually figure it out. Which is what this is all about. It's very hard and very time consuming to do that.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    It's hard and time consuming to build smartphones in the first place. Sometimes you have to do hard and time consuming things. I don't see that a requirement to continue to honor the warranty after third-party repairs has been made represents any sort of undue burden on Apple, let alone one so terrible that it justifies overturning hard-fought consumer protections and returning to a system where companies are allowed to screw over customers pretty much at will. Apple always has the choice to err on the side of caution and honor the warranty even when the third-party repair is at fault. That caps the cost to whatever it costs them to provide a replacement device. Which is probably something like $200 if your phone isn't brand new. If they feel it may be worthwhile, they can try to determine whether a third-party repair is at fault for the problem at hand. But they don't have to.

disordinary 10y ago

No, it clearly states that the apple is liable for faults that the aftermarket part didn't cause. Any faults with the aftermarket part or faults caused by that repair are the responsibility for the person who installed the aftermarket part. The example is relevant.

georgespencer 10y ago
The point the post illustrated is that an aftermarket part and/or an inexpert repair job could cause widespread damage to other components, and at times do so imperceptibly.
- ksk 10y ago
  Can you give a practical example of such a thing happening in anything except the rarest of rarest case? If you're always concerned with what's possible, then you'll find that anythings possible, and soon you're buying insurance against a meteor strike damaging your car :P Also lets not forget that legal frameworks are perfectly capable of handling exceptional circumstances. So even if it was the case that the part caused damage to other parts, it would be an argument that a court would be sympathetic to.
  - georgespencer 10y ago
    > Can you give a practical example of such a thing happening in anything except the rarest of rarest case? This happens _all_the_time_. Especially in complex precision-engineered electronics products. If a third-party repair shop is making repairs using Apple certified components then that's fine. If it's any aftermarket component then clearly Apple should not have any sort of responsibility to the device, which has been fundamentally altered.

mikeash 10y ago

In your first paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair is responsible for the fault. In the second paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair could have been responsible for the fault. These are not the same. Apple is not legally obligated to repair a device that's been damaged by a third-party repair, and nobody is saying they should be. Apple is legally obligated to repair a defective device, even if it has been repaired by a third party, unless the defect was caused by that repair. They can't just say "this could have been caused by the third party, so we're not going to look at it." They have to actually figure it out.

georgespencer 10y ago
> In the second paragraph, you present a scenario where the third party repair could have been responsible for the fault. No. Perhaps I could have been clearer, but the emphasis in that sentence is on 'widespread', not on 'could'. Which is to say that third party repairs can do significantly more damage, and if you have your TouchID sensor replaced or repaired by a third party, and a connected component fails, Apple may rightfully feel aggrieved if they're on the hook. The component may have failed anyway, but it also might be due to the third party repair or unofficial component. > They can't just say "this could have been caused by the third party, so we're not going to look at it." They have to actually figure it out. Which is what this is all about. It's very hard and very time consuming to do that.
- mikeash 10y ago
  It's hard and time consuming to build smartphones in the first place. Sometimes you have to do hard and time consuming things. I don't see that a requirement to continue to honor the warranty after third-party repairs has been made represents any sort of undue burden on Apple, let alone one so terrible that it justifies overturning hard-fought consumer protections and returning to a system where companies are allowed to screw over customers pretty much at will. Apple always has the choice to err on the side of caution and honor the warranty even when the third-party repair is at fault. That caps the cost to whatever it costs them to provide a replacement device. Which is probably something like $200 if your phone isn't brand new. If they feel it may be worthwhile, they can try to determine whether a third-party repair is at fault for the problem at hand. But they don't have to.