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The situation sounds remarkably similar to auto-manufacturers building cars that can only be services by 'licensed technicians' (usually their dealer network).

by spangry 10y ago

The situation sounds remarkably similar to auto-manufacturers building cars that can only be services by 'licensed technicians' (usually their dealer network). I wonder if that is the bigger issue the ACCC has in mind (and is trying to discourage): manufacturers who sell a product that creates a subsequent and artificial 'captive market'.

simion314 10y ago
Exactly, so you change your built-in speaker in your car then the engine breaks and you lose your warranty because you changed the speaker at a third party.
- culturestate 10y ago
  The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine in the same way that...well really any internal component of a smartphone is coupled to other internal components. A better example from the automotive industry would be losing your engine warranty for having an "unauthorized" mechanic swap in an aftermarket oxygen sensor.
  - wtallis 10y ago
    > The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine in the same way that...well really any internal component of a smartphone is coupled to other internal components. That's an obvious and important distinction, but it can't be solely left up to the manufacturer to determine what was coupled or related enough to void the entire warranty or absolve the manufacturer of all liability. If it's left up to them, they have a strong incentive to prohibit any third-party repairs of any kind. A good regulatory policy would need to ensure that the incentive is for the manufacturer to be the cheapest and easiest provider of repair services, so that poorly-executed third-party repairs are less likely to happen in the first place.
  - Someone 10y ago
    "The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine" In today's world I wouldn't bet on that always being the case. Your audio system might send audio data to your speakers over the same network your car tires uses to tell your engine that the road is slippery. Also, your car's engine in a wider sense might want to use your audio system to communicate with you, for example if your chair has detected that you are dozing of. Modern car electronics really are integrated with each other.
    - pdpi 10y ago
      Because we're talking engine and speakers — it's common practice for cars to produce a louder engine noise through the speakers than what would be heard normally. Edit: source http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-...
  - gambiting 10y ago
    Except that it can be. I have a friend who installed a rear-view dashcam by wiring it directly to the 12V line running through the back of the car, and the car would start throwing all sorts of engine errors until you removed the camera. It was basically drawing too much power on a line that was only designed for certain power draw and causing a computer error elsewhere. My point is, that cars are incredibly complex machines, and it's very hard to say with absolute certainty that "changing component X won't affect component Y".
    - douche 10y ago
      Cars are not necessarily incredibly complex. We've gone a good way down the path of making them so, but that is almost entirely a self-inflicted problem.
      - simion314 10y ago
        Agree, I also heard about the issue where you remove the battery then the computer restarts and you can't start your car, I am not sure what mechanics do to have it start again. Probably some major incident needs to happen so safety laws are passed so the main function of a car does not depend on the fancy features like navigation,sensor reading for doors, things like that
        coredog64 10y ago
        My Honda did this. I replaced the battery and the passkey system got confused. Allegedly there is a VIN-tied procedure for temporarily overriding it (e.g. Turn on car, pump brakes 3 times, turn to accessory, back to on pump brakes twice, etc.). Shockingly, the dealer declined to share it with us, forcing a tow to the service center. If you are buying a new car with a passkey system, make sure to extract the code before you sign the papers.
        icantdrive55 10y ago
        Thanks. I've been looking at new cars, and a bit scared. I've been to automotive school, and never needed to bring my vechicles to the dealership. If things don't change, I might be forced into going into those $225/hr. dens of mystery. When I'm doing the negotiations; I do plan on insisting a shop manual, but even a shop manual can only do so much. It's that closed computer that scares me. Taking out a battery and the car won't start is unacceptable. (I understand a vechicle needs to relearn the pulse widths of the EFI system, after a power interrupt. Actually--I don't even understand that. The computer should have a rechargeable battery that remembers the last data points? Or, go into "open loop" until the computer relearns? I find any vechicle that won't start after taking a battery out just wrong.)
  - mikeash 10y ago
    The fact that a semi-trained person manning a mall kiosk can successfully replace the component in question for $80 would seem to indicate that it's not actually very tightly coupled.
axoltl 10y ago
You bring up an interesting point. I'll let the actual car part be what it is (I should totally be able to change a simple mechanical part on my car). Instead, I'll ask the question if I should be able to swap out the LiDAR on my (partially) self-driving car. There are complicated calibration steps needed in order to ensure that the LiDAR is operating correctly and meets safety standards. If you replace safety critical (and in Apple's case, security critical) functionality on your car and it causes bodily harm, who do you think is going to end up in the news with a negative headline? Furthermore, should a car manufacturer be able to implement measures to prevent this from happening?
- greggman 10y ago
  Just thinking out loud but the car one seems solvable by moving the responsibility for accidents. It starts with the manufacture and transfers to the modifer. Although like above the issue gets complicated quickly since modifying one thing might be unrelated to the accident. I guess if it can be proven it was because of the mod then responsibility should transfer to the modder.
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    This is the kinda hilarious thing about self-driving cars. Either the manufacturers are held responsible for nearly all accidents, in which case it is probably impossible to make money on them; or we accept that sometimes consumer electronics kill people in the street.
  - rickycook 10y ago
    that's all well and good, but regardless of who is to blame, the headline will likely read that the fault is with the manufacturer because it's more likely to generate readers
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      We can't make laws to protect you from buzzfeed

by spangry 10y ago

simion314 10y ago

Exactly, so you change your built-in speaker in your car then the engine breaks and you lose your warranty because you changed the speaker at a third party.

culturestate 10y ago
The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine in the same way that...well really any internal component of a smartphone is coupled to other internal components. A better example from the automotive industry would be losing your engine warranty for having an "unauthorized" mechanic swap in an aftermarket oxygen sensor.
- wtallis 10y ago
  > The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine in the same way that...well really any internal component of a smartphone is coupled to other internal components. That's an obvious and important distinction, but it can't be solely left up to the manufacturer to determine what was coupled or related enough to void the entire warranty or absolve the manufacturer of all liability. If it's left up to them, they have a strong incentive to prohibit any third-party repairs of any kind. A good regulatory policy would need to ensure that the incentive is for the manufacturer to be the cheapest and easiest provider of repair services, so that poorly-executed third-party repairs are less likely to happen in the first place.
- Someone 10y ago
  "The obvious difference here is that a speaker is not tightly coupled to an engine" In today's world I wouldn't bet on that always being the case. Your audio system might send audio data to your speakers over the same network your car tires uses to tell your engine that the road is slippery. Also, your car's engine in a wider sense might want to use your audio system to communicate with you, for example if your chair has detected that you are dozing of. Modern car electronics really are integrated with each other.
  - pdpi 10y ago
    Because we're talking engine and speakers — it's common practice for cars to produce a louder engine noise through the speakers than what would be heard normally. Edit: source http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-...
- gambiting 10y ago
  Except that it can be. I have a friend who installed a rear-view dashcam by wiring it directly to the 12V line running through the back of the car, and the car would start throwing all sorts of engine errors until you removed the camera. It was basically drawing too much power on a line that was only designed for certain power draw and causing a computer error elsewhere. My point is, that cars are incredibly complex machines, and it's very hard to say with absolute certainty that "changing component X won't affect component Y".
  - douche 10y ago
    Cars are not necessarily incredibly complex. We've gone a good way down the path of making them so, but that is almost entirely a self-inflicted problem.
    - simion314 10y ago
      Agree, I also heard about the issue where you remove the battery then the computer restarts and you can't start your car, I am not sure what mechanics do to have it start again. Probably some major incident needs to happen so safety laws are passed so the main function of a car does not depend on the fancy features like navigation,sensor reading for doors, things like that
      - coredog64 10y ago
        My Honda did this. I replaced the battery and the passkey system got confused. Allegedly there is a VIN-tied procedure for temporarily overriding it (e.g. Turn on car, pump brakes 3 times, turn to accessory, back to on pump brakes twice, etc.). Shockingly, the dealer declined to share it with us, forcing a tow to the service center. If you are buying a new car with a passkey system, make sure to extract the code before you sign the papers.
        icantdrive55 10y ago
        Thanks. I've been looking at new cars, and a bit scared. I've been to automotive school, and never needed to bring my vechicles to the dealership. If things don't change, I might be forced into going into those $225/hr. dens of mystery. When I'm doing the negotiations; I do plan on insisting a shop manual, but even a shop manual can only do so much. It's that closed computer that scares me. Taking out a battery and the car won't start is unacceptable. (I understand a vechicle needs to relearn the pulse widths of the EFI system, after a power interrupt. Actually--I don't even understand that. The computer should have a rechargeable battery that remembers the last data points? Or, go into "open loop" until the computer relearns? I find any vechicle that won't start after taking a battery out just wrong.)
- mikeash 10y ago
  The fact that a semi-trained person manning a mall kiosk can successfully replace the component in question for $80 would seem to indicate that it's not actually very tightly coupled.

axoltl 10y ago

You bring up an interesting point. I'll let the actual car part be what it is (I should totally be able to change a simple mechanical part on my car). Instead, I'll ask the question if I should be able to swap out the LiDAR on my (partially) self-driving car. There are complicated calibration steps needed in order to ensure that the LiDAR is operating correctly and meets safety standards. If you replace safety critical (and in Apple's case, security critical) functionality on your car and it causes bodily harm, who do you think is going to end up in the news with a negative headline? Furthermore, should a car manufacturer be able to implement measures to prevent this from happening?

greggman 10y ago
Just thinking out loud but the car one seems solvable by moving the responsibility for accidents. It starts with the manufacture and transfers to the modifer. Although like above the issue gets complicated quickly since modifying one thing might be unrelated to the accident. I guess if it can be proven it was because of the mod then responsibility should transfer to the modder.
- microcolonel 10y ago
  This is the kinda hilarious thing about self-driving cars. Either the manufacturers are held responsible for nearly all accidents, in which case it is probably impossible to make money on them; or we accept that sometimes consumer electronics kill people in the street.
- rickycook 10y ago
  that's all well and good, but regardless of who is to blame, the headline will likely read that the fault is with the manufacturer because it's more likely to generate readers
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    We can't make laws to protect you from buzzfeed