4 ms·

Fairness, one way or the other, is hard to quantify here. CEO's get compensated a lot more than other employees, in a lot of different ways; you could just as e

Fairness, one way or the other, is hard to quantify here. CEO's get compensated a lot more than other employees, in a lot of different ways; you could just as easily argue that isn't fair either. Besides, at the bottom, the CEO is taking on debt that could find him/her bankrupted if the company fails. I don't think it would be responsible to even offer that facility to all employees. It might not even be legal, if the employees are not accredited investors, though I'm not sure about that. I should add that I don't have any knowledge of who pushed for the deal, and how it was set, but I doubt the CEO strolled in and just asked for the loan. I'm assuming it was part of the compensation package that was proposed or negotiated by the board and their comp consultants.

sjg007 10y ago
The CEO won't go bankrupt.. these loans are backed by the stock as collateral. But there should be a law that all such plans and purchase agreements are available to all employees if available to the execs.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mikekchar 10y ago
  > The CEO won't go bankrupt.. these loans are backed by the stock as collateral. I couldn't actually find this out through a google search. What happens if the market rate does not allow the lender to recover the principle? I thought you'd still be liable for the remainder. It's just that they can force a sale if they want to.
  - allannienhuis 10y ago
    This isn't an ordinary debt from a 3rd party; it's a contract with the company - they can put whatever terms and restrictions they like on that contract, including no other recourse for the debt other than proceeds of the sale of that stock, or it's forfeiture.
    - scurvy 10y ago
      If the company forgives the debt, doesn't the IRS treat that as income?
      - allannienhuis 10y ago
        Possibly, But there's a difference between a debt being written off (uncollectable) and forgiven. There's also capital gains losses that might offset potential income; the accounting for all of these cashless transactions is complex - that's what the accountants and lawyers are for :P
  - brianfitz 10y ago
    Allan who also responded is fairly inline with the answer to this -- except one key point: the company can write whatever they want into the contract regarding recourse, but the IRS will only recognize the loan as legit for tax purposes if it has a liability associated with it beyond the stock as collateral. This liability to the key execs will be reflected as a line item on the company balance sheet. And even if the company doesn't aggressively pursue the debt (which they can sue for), you're still on the hook to the IRS for the reason scurvy mentions below.
- mavelikara 10y ago
  Regular rank and file employees should also ask for this provision when negotiating their employment offer. Try to negotiate a deal such that the employer gives you a one-time sign-on bonus which, after taxes, will pay for the early exercise of the offered equity, and get the employer to give you the paperwork for filing 83(b) election. I had posted about this earlier here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13426949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13426949, which lead to a lively discussion. At least one founder - Steve Newman of Scalyr - came out and said that this is how his startup handles equity compensation (minus the tax cover). More people should ask and get this style of offer.

sjg007 10y ago

The CEO won't go bankrupt.. these loans are backed by the stock as collateral. But there should be a law that all such plans and purchase agreements are available to all employees if available to the execs.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mikekchar 10y ago
> The CEO won't go bankrupt.. these loans are backed by the stock as collateral. I couldn't actually find this out through a google search. What happens if the market rate does not allow the lender to recover the principle? I thought you'd still be liable for the remainder. It's just that they can force a sale if they want to.
- allannienhuis 10y ago
  This isn't an ordinary debt from a 3rd party; it's a contract with the company - they can put whatever terms and restrictions they like on that contract, including no other recourse for the debt other than proceeds of the sale of that stock, or it's forfeiture.
  - scurvy 10y ago
    If the company forgives the debt, doesn't the IRS treat that as income?
    - allannienhuis 10y ago
      Possibly, But there's a difference between a debt being written off (uncollectable) and forgiven. There's also capital gains losses that might offset potential income; the accounting for all of these cashless transactions is complex - that's what the accountants and lawyers are for :P
- brianfitz 10y ago
  Allan who also responded is fairly inline with the answer to this -- except one key point: the company can write whatever they want into the contract regarding recourse, but the IRS will only recognize the loan as legit for tax purposes if it has a liability associated with it beyond the stock as collateral. This liability to the key execs will be reflected as a line item on the company balance sheet. And even if the company doesn't aggressively pursue the debt (which they can sue for), you're still on the hook to the IRS for the reason scurvy mentions below.
mavelikara 10y ago
Regular rank and file employees should also ask for this provision when negotiating their employment offer. Try to negotiate a deal such that the employer gives you a one-time sign-on bonus which, after taxes, will pay for the early exercise of the offered equity, and get the employer to give you the paperwork for filing 83(b) election. I had posted about this earlier here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13426949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13426949, which lead to a lively discussion. At least one founder - Steve Newman of Scalyr - came out and said that this is how his startup handles equity compensation (minus the tax cover). More people should ask and get this style of offer.