5 ms·

Your Lesson #2 is wrong. If someone accuses you of theft listen to your lawyer, whether you are innocent or guilty.

throwaway729 10y ago
And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction. I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-29-17.html#text/p3 http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-... Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did. But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself. In a perfect world, being actually innocent would mean zero risk of conviction of a crime with a vigorous and dedicated defense, no matter what the prosecution did. We don't live in a perfect world, and it is, in fact, quite possible for a situation to exist where you are actually innocent and on-balance have better expected results by invoking the Fifth. Even accepting potential negative consequences that may have outside of the criminal realm.
  - throwaway729 10y ago
    I agree in principle and understand your point. But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client. At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client. Okay, how about where they actually physically have the documents that are the subject of the case, cooperating with discovery would reveal them, but they didn't actually use them in the new job or take them with intent, even though the other people accused alongside did actually steal smaller numbers of documents, and use them in the new job without your clients knowledge, so that your only real hope besides gambling on a jury's inferences of intent is that a criminal case is never initiated because your clients possession of the information doesn't come to light. > At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea. A plea is non-testimonial, does not open up cross examination, and does not open up threat of perjury. And, no, they don't have to do that if criminal charges are never filed, which is exactly what you are hoping for if you are invoking the Fifth in other circumstances because of potential future criminal prosecution.
      - throwaway729 10y ago
        My assumption is that intentionally copying IP onto a personal device and removing that device from the office -- regardless of any actual intent to use that data -- is still theft. Which would make the former employer's claims truthful. It's super unclear to me how you would accidentally retain a copy digital documents...? Like I said, it's hard to imagine this scenario actually happening. But for good measure: Lesson #3: Leave work at work and startup at home.
        kelnos 10y ago
        I'm actually not sure it's theft. It might violate confidentiality agreements, and using those files outside the scope of the former employer might constitute unlawful use of trade secrets, but simply copying the files and bringing them home may not actually be a criminal act. (I'm just putting this out there because I don't actually know, and hope someone else knows the answer. Not attempting to be authoritative.)
        10y ago
fowlerpower 10y ago
Exactly. I agree with you, you should always lawyer up and never say anything your lawyer does not advise.

And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction. I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-29-17.html#text/p3 http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-... Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did. But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself. In a perfect world, being actually innocent would mean zero risk of conviction of a crime with a vigorous and dedicated defense, no matter what the prosecution did. We don't live in a perfect world, and it is, in fact, quite possible for a situation to exist where you are actually innocent and on-balance have better expected results by invoking the Fifth. Even accepting potential negative consequences that may have outside of the criminal realm.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  I agree in principle and understand your point. But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client. At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client. Okay, how about where they actually physically have the documents that are the subject of the case, cooperating with discovery would reveal them, but they didn't actually use them in the new job or take them with intent, even though the other people accused alongside did actually steal smaller numbers of documents, and use them in the new job without your clients knowledge, so that your only real hope besides gambling on a jury's inferences of intent is that a criminal case is never initiated because your clients possession of the information doesn't come to light. > At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea. A plea is non-testimonial, does not open up cross examination, and does not open up threat of perjury. And, no, they don't have to do that if criminal charges are never filed, which is exactly what you are hoping for if you are invoking the Fifth in other circumstances because of potential future criminal prosecution.
    - throwaway729 10y ago
      My assumption is that intentionally copying IP onto a personal device and removing that device from the office -- regardless of any actual intent to use that data -- is still theft. Which would make the former employer's claims truthful. It's super unclear to me how you would accidentally retain a copy digital documents...? Like I said, it's hard to imagine this scenario actually happening. But for good measure: Lesson #3: Leave work at work and startup at home.
      - kelnos 10y ago
        I'm actually not sure it's theft. It might violate confidentiality agreements, and using those files outside the scope of the former employer might constitute unlawful use of trade secrets, but simply copying the files and bringing them home may not actually be a criminal act. (I'm just putting this out there because I don't actually know, and hope someone else knows the answer. Not attempting to be authoritative.)
      - 10y ago

fowlerpower 10y ago

Exactly. I agree with you, you should always lawyer up and never say anything your lawyer does not advise.