4 ms·

UNIX vendors didn't normally ship releases or updates that introduced dependency issues. Part of their job was doing testing and quality assurance, that's what

UNIX vendors didn't normally ship releases or updates that introduced dependency issues. Part of their job was doing testing and quality assurance, that's what you were paying good money for. Most such issues were introduced locally. A good sysadmin would know how to avoid dependency hell. For example this might include taking basic precautions such as testing changes in a chroot or development/testing environment, before rolling them out. I'm not saying the problem didn't exist, only that it wasn't an actual problem if you knew what you were doing.

greenhouse_gas 10y ago
The problem with dependency hell was more that RedHat back then didn't have such a thing as a "rolling release" or "testing" in Debian speak. So while "RedHat 6" worked fine, trying to upgrade (say) OpenOffice would require that you download the rpm from OO's website, which would require that you upgrade Gnome, which would require that you upgrade X, which would require that you upgrade glibc, and down the rathole. Considering that most people then were still on dialup, it was horribly annoying. Also, RedHat didn't ship with (relatively) much software (install everything was an option). Now you've got to configure; make; make install. Now you've got two parallel installations of libraries and software. Oh. And the RPM database would die periodically (rpm anything would hang), requiring a reinstallation. Since moving to Debian over a decade ago, I think I had to configure; make; make install something only once (it was an old and unmaintained Java library on SF.net). Almost everything (open source) is in the Repos.
- vetinari 10y ago
  As someone who used Redhat since 5.0 - the RPM database never died for me. But then, I've never used 'rpm --force', which many did and I suspect was the major factor in RPM database death.
  - dozzie 10y ago
    I think it was more of a problem on the BerkeleyDB side than on the side of data. BDB was giving an impression of quite fragile thing back then, but it was (and AFAIK still is) the only source of data about installed packages.
- infodroid 10y ago
  Except this really has nothing to do with rolling releases, or the amount of software the vendor ships in the official repositories. Switching to Debian won't solve the problem either. There is no distro today that provides packages for all the software you will ever want, or the specific version that you need. At some point, you will resort to installing software from outside the officially-supported sources, whether from experimental or user-maintained package repositories, or from a third party in binary or source form. Until recently, this was an operation that wasn't guaranteed to be easy or straightforward or risk-free. In the worst case, it could even screw up your system in ways that are time-consuming to diagnose and fix. In the example you gave, I would conclude that OpenOffice didn't package their RPM well, because it ended up driving RH6 users down the rabbit hole. At the very least, they could have unpacked all the files under /opt and provided static binaries, or included all the libs in the archive. Many packages still do that today, such as Vagrant, which installs under /opt/vagrant and includes its own Ruby interpreter there. Nowadays there are efforts underway to make installing custom software safe and easy, projects like: flatpak, OSTree, appimage, and snap. Hopefully we can reach a point where you can install whatever version of whatever software you want without breaking anything.
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    We're talking about different levels. Generally, nowadays you keep a system relatively up to date using apt-get update and upgrade, pacman or yum. Back then all you had was RPM (the equivalent of dpkg). The attitude was "you want new versions? Go to upstream, download the .RPM and install". Now, OO (don't remember if it existed back then) depends on certain versions of (say) GTK. What do you do? Go to gtk.org and download the rpm. Rinse and repeat
    - infodroid 10y ago
      If that's what you call dependency hell then you've had it easy!
- ams6110 10y ago
  I maintain several RHEL and CentOS clusters. I never install anything from source. Packages from yum repositories only. Upgrade OpenOffice with a downloaded RPM? No. The point of RedHat is stability for enterprises. If you want the latest version of everything, RedHat is the wrong distribution.
  - greenhouse_gas 10y ago
    This was RedHat Linux, not RHEL. This was _way_ before the RHEL/Fedora split.
    - ams6110 10y ago
      Aha -- I saw RedHat 6 and read "RHEL 6"

greenhouse_gas 10y ago

The problem with dependency hell was more that RedHat back then didn't have such a thing as a "rolling release" or "testing" in Debian speak. So while "RedHat 6" worked fine, trying to upgrade (say) OpenOffice would require that you download the rpm from OO's website, which would require that you upgrade Gnome, which would require that you upgrade X, which would require that you upgrade glibc, and down the rathole. Considering that most people then were still on dialup, it was horribly annoying. Also, RedHat didn't ship with (relatively) much software (install everything was an option). Now you've got to configure; make; make install. Now you've got two parallel installations of libraries and software. Oh. And the RPM database would die periodically (rpm anything would hang), requiring a reinstallation. Since moving to Debian over a decade ago, I think I had to configure; make; make install something only once (it was an old and unmaintained Java library on SF.net). Almost everything (open source) is in the Repos.

vetinari 10y ago
As someone who used Redhat since 5.0 - the RPM database never died for me. But then, I've never used 'rpm --force', which many did and I suspect was the major factor in RPM database death.
- dozzie 10y ago
  I think it was more of a problem on the BerkeleyDB side than on the side of data. BDB was giving an impression of quite fragile thing back then, but it was (and AFAIK still is) the only source of data about installed packages.
infodroid 10y ago
Except this really has nothing to do with rolling releases, or the amount of software the vendor ships in the official repositories. Switching to Debian won't solve the problem either. There is no distro today that provides packages for all the software you will ever want, or the specific version that you need. At some point, you will resort to installing software from outside the officially-supported sources, whether from experimental or user-maintained package repositories, or from a third party in binary or source form. Until recently, this was an operation that wasn't guaranteed to be easy or straightforward or risk-free. In the worst case, it could even screw up your system in ways that are time-consuming to diagnose and fix. In the example you gave, I would conclude that OpenOffice didn't package their RPM well, because it ended up driving RH6 users down the rabbit hole. At the very least, they could have unpacked all the files under /opt and provided static binaries, or included all the libs in the archive. Many packages still do that today, such as Vagrant, which installs under /opt/vagrant and includes its own Ruby interpreter there. Nowadays there are efforts underway to make installing custom software safe and easy, projects like: flatpak, OSTree, appimage, and snap. Hopefully we can reach a point where you can install whatever version of whatever software you want without breaking anything.
- greenhouse_gas 10y ago
  We're talking about different levels. Generally, nowadays you keep a system relatively up to date using apt-get update and upgrade, pacman or yum. Back then all you had was RPM (the equivalent of dpkg). The attitude was "you want new versions? Go to upstream, download the .RPM and install". Now, OO (don't remember if it existed back then) depends on certain versions of (say) GTK. What do you do? Go to gtk.org and download the rpm. Rinse and repeat
  - infodroid 10y ago
    If that's what you call dependency hell then you've had it easy!
ams6110 10y ago
I maintain several RHEL and CentOS clusters. I never install anything from source. Packages from yum repositories only. Upgrade OpenOffice with a downloaded RPM? No. The point of RedHat is stability for enterprises. If you want the latest version of everything, RedHat is the wrong distribution.
- greenhouse_gas 10y ago
  This was RedHat Linux, not RHEL. This was _way_ before the RHEL/Fedora split.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Aha -- I saw RedHat 6 and read "RHEL 6"