4 ms·

Even Tor isn't a magic bullet, specifically because of other technologies used in combination, such as a web browser. https://www.eff.org/pages/playpen-cases-f

by j_s 10y ago

Even Tor isn't a magic bullet, specifically because of other technologies used in combination, such as a web browser. https://www.eff.org/pages/playpen-cases-frequently-asked-questions https://www.eff.org/pages/playpen-cases-frequently-asked-que...

mirimir 10y ago
Yes, the FBI exploited a Firefox vulnerability to drop NIT malware on Playpen users. And said malware phoned home to FBI servers, bypassing Tor. However, any Whonix users would not have been affected, for two reasons. One, this was Windows malware, and Whonix is based on Debian. Two, Whonix comprises a pair of Debian VMs, a Tor-gateway VM and a workstation VM. Even if the malware had pwned the workstation VM, there is no route to the Internet except through Tor.
- j_s 10y ago
  Then I recommend you change this: What works is using Tor. to this: What works is using [Whonix].
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Too late to edit. But I added a comment. Thanks.
- houst0n_ 10y ago
  If the workstation vm is pwned what stops it from hitting the usual home router internal network address and/or changing the route? Is there some network isolation going on which prevents that?
  - mirimir 10y ago
    The workstation VM has no route to the home router except through the Tor gateway VM. With Whonix, the gateway VM isn't even a NAT router. Plus there are iptables rules that block everything except Tor. The gateway VM only exposes Tor SocksPorts to the workstation VM. You'd need to break the network stack in the gateway VM in order to bypass Tor.
    - houst0n_ 10y ago
      Right so can't I just add one then? Most vm setups I might have a default route to the other VM running tor but I can still talk to e.g 192.168.0.1 even if I'm not putting traffic through it. Is this some kind of 'vm specific' virtual network which can't talk on the real lan? Is that implemented on the hypervisor?
      - mirimir 10y ago
        Yes, for Whonix it's a VirtualBox internal network. There's no direct routing through the host, only among VMs. You can do much the same on VMware. Edit: I forget that I'm writing on HN. When I say VM, I'm referring to full OS-level VMs, not namespace, Java, etc VMs.
        houst0n_ 10y ago
        That sounds like a pretty neat setup. I know I can just google all this so please forgive me the inane questions; it depends on virtualbox though? That's a bit of a nonstarter for a few of. We probably aren't the target base for the project though so maybe it doesn't matter...
        mirimir 10y ago
        Yes, it depends on VirtualBox. But there are versions for KVM, and for Qubes. More of a nonstarter, though. Or even using physical devices, such as Raspberry or Banana Pi. Years ago, I created a LiveDVD with VirtualBox plus Whonix gateway and workstation VMs. I had to hack at both Whonix VMs to reduce size and RAM requirements. But I got a LiveDVD that would run with 8GB RAM. It took maybe 20 minutes to boot, but was quite responsive.
  - j_s 10y ago
    In theory breaking properly-configured Whonix would require a VM escape, pretty much the holy grail of exploits (a few have happened recently). The alternative is a complete break of Tor, which has proven unlikely.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Wait, did they reveal how their exploit worked? I thought they had already dropped two cases rather than reveal the internals of the NIT? Like Tor Browser could still be unpatched for this?
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Yes, they didn't reveal the Firefox bug or the details of NIT. And yes, Tor browser could still be vulnerable. You must isolate Tor process and userland in separate VMs, or even separate physical devices. Even if the browser gets pwned, and the NIT gets dropped, you'll be OK, because the Internet is reachable only through Tor. Whonix is an easy to use implementation. I've been ragging on Tor Project about this for years. But they don't want to frighten people by making Tor too complicated to use. You could be cynical, and say that they want the cannon fodder for their government masters. Or you could say that they think it's more important to protect the most people, rather than to most strongly protect technically competent people. I have no clue what the truth is. Maybe there's a range of opinion.
    - dublinben 10y ago
      If Tor is too difficult to use, people won't use it. Edward Snowden and Laura Poitras had to dedicate a significant amount of time to get Glenn Greenwald to just use TAILS, a plug and play Tor operating system. Someone like that is not going to use Whonix, even if maybe they should be.
      - mirimir 10y ago
        Yeah, I get that. And I realize that I've gone off the deep end. It's hard to imagine anymore how easily people's eyes glaze over. I've written guides that lay everything out, step by step. And many people still can't seem to get it. But Whonix really is trivial. You install VirtualBox. You download the Whonix gateway and workstation appliances. You import them in VirtualBox. You start them. You work in the workstation VM. There's nothing to configure. That literally should be enough information to use Whonix. Plus there's a wiki and a support forum.

by j_s 10y ago

mirimir 10y ago

Yes, the FBI exploited a Firefox vulnerability to drop NIT malware on Playpen users. And said malware phoned home to FBI servers, bypassing Tor. However, any Whonix users would not have been affected, for two reasons. One, this was Windows malware, and Whonix is based on Debian. Two, Whonix comprises a pair of Debian VMs, a Tor-gateway VM and a workstation VM. Even if the malware had pwned the workstation VM, there is no route to the Internet except through Tor.

j_s 10y ago
Then I recommend you change this: What works is using Tor. to this: What works is using [Whonix].
- mirimir 10y ago
  Too late to edit. But I added a comment. Thanks.
houst0n_ 10y ago
If the workstation vm is pwned what stops it from hitting the usual home router internal network address and/or changing the route? Is there some network isolation going on which prevents that?
- mirimir 10y ago
  The workstation VM has no route to the home router except through the Tor gateway VM. With Whonix, the gateway VM isn't even a NAT router. Plus there are iptables rules that block everything except Tor. The gateway VM only exposes Tor SocksPorts to the workstation VM. You'd need to break the network stack in the gateway VM in order to bypass Tor.
  - houst0n_ 10y ago
    Right so can't I just add one then? Most vm setups I might have a default route to the other VM running tor but I can still talk to e.g 192.168.0.1 even if I'm not putting traffic through it. Is this some kind of 'vm specific' virtual network which can't talk on the real lan? Is that implemented on the hypervisor?
    - mirimir 10y ago
      Yes, for Whonix it's a VirtualBox internal network. There's no direct routing through the host, only among VMs. You can do much the same on VMware. Edit: I forget that I'm writing on HN. When I say VM, I'm referring to full OS-level VMs, not namespace, Java, etc VMs.
      - houst0n_ 10y ago
        That sounds like a pretty neat setup. I know I can just google all this so please forgive me the inane questions; it depends on virtualbox though? That's a bit of a nonstarter for a few of. We probably aren't the target base for the project though so maybe it doesn't matter...
        mirimir 10y ago
        Yes, it depends on VirtualBox. But there are versions for KVM, and for Qubes. More of a nonstarter, though. Or even using physical devices, such as Raspberry or Banana Pi. Years ago, I created a LiveDVD with VirtualBox plus Whonix gateway and workstation VMs. I had to hack at both Whonix VMs to reduce size and RAM requirements. But I got a LiveDVD that would run with 8GB RAM. It took maybe 20 minutes to boot, but was quite responsive.
- j_s 10y ago
  In theory breaking properly-configured Whonix would require a VM escape, pretty much the holy grail of exploits (a few have happened recently). The alternative is a complete break of Tor, which has proven unlikely.
djsumdog 10y ago
Wait, did they reveal how their exploit worked? I thought they had already dropped two cases rather than reveal the internals of the NIT? Like Tor Browser could still be unpatched for this?
- mirimir 10y ago
  Yes, they didn't reveal the Firefox bug or the details of NIT. And yes, Tor browser could still be vulnerable. You must isolate Tor process and userland in separate VMs, or even separate physical devices. Even if the browser gets pwned, and the NIT gets dropped, you'll be OK, because the Internet is reachable only through Tor. Whonix is an easy to use implementation. I've been ragging on Tor Project about this for years. But they don't want to frighten people by making Tor too complicated to use. You could be cynical, and say that they want the cannon fodder for their government masters. Or you could say that they think it's more important to protect the most people, rather than to most strongly protect technically competent people. I have no clue what the truth is. Maybe there's a range of opinion.
  - dublinben 10y ago
    If Tor is too difficult to use, people won't use it. Edward Snowden and Laura Poitras had to dedicate a significant amount of time to get Glenn Greenwald to just use TAILS, a plug and play Tor operating system. Someone like that is not going to use Whonix, even if maybe they should be.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      Yeah, I get that. And I realize that I've gone off the deep end. It's hard to imagine anymore how easily people's eyes glaze over. I've written guides that lay everything out, step by step. And many people still can't seem to get it. But Whonix really is trivial. You install VirtualBox. You download the Whonix gateway and workstation appliances. You import them in VirtualBox. You start them. You work in the workstation VM. There's nothing to configure. That literally should be enough information to use Whonix. Plus there's a wiki and a support forum.