5 ms·

I mean... yeah obviously, but your examples of toxic behavior and fraud are about as far from the case in question as possible, except insofar as they apply to

by M_Grey 10y ago

I mean... yeah obviously, but your examples of toxic behavior and fraud are about as far from the case in question as possible, except insofar as they apply to the guy who bricked the door opener. I'm not suggesting that businesses tolerate abuse or fraud, but this is far from either.

tyingq 10y ago
Well, his opening remark on the forum ended in "wondering what kind of piece of shit I just purchased here.." That appears to be before any contact with anyone at all. That, alone, doesn't cross a line. But it is a clue that the interaction might quickly lead down a path where you choose to part ways. I'd have been initially polite, helpful, try to fix the issue, etc. But there would be some line where I'd stop.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Impolite and "toxic customer"/"Thief" are worlds apart. If you can't deal with a broad selection of the average public, don't sell to them. It's really that simple, and the business world selects heavily against people who think that their product or their fiefdom is excepted form that rule.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    I can see that viewpoint but there are successful businesses that draw the line in a different place than you do.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      It's not about the lines that I draw or that anyone draws, it's about the fundamental power asymmetry in customer-business relationships. Obviously a bar or a B&B have to consider the whole pool of customers, but if you're in the business of selling someone an IoT garage door opener...
      - tyingq 10y ago
        I admit that others view it differently. But I'm not apologetic about the idea that a business can choose how much rude behavior to tolerate. Especially if I'm willing to refund without return of the product.
        trmsw 10y ago
        Calling a thing a "piece of shit" and leaving a critical review isn't rude behaviour. This isn't tea time at Buckingham Palace.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Your call, I suppose it's subjective. But I personally consider it to be rude. Would it be an appropriate support response to suggest that maybe their phone is a piece of shit?
        trmsw 10y ago
        It's only rude if you believe that the customer has to respect the hard work and good intentions that went into the product, and make allowances if it doesn't "just work". They don't.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Similarly, I don't have to make allowances for people that can't manage basic civility. I wouldn't send back food with a "this is shit" comment at a restaurant. Even a fast food place. Because I'm interacting with a human being, and see no reason to be a jerk. As a side bonus, "sorry, this tastes bad, could I get something else?" has a higher likelihood of resolving the problem.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
zobzu 10y ago
"fuck this product" is also not abuse. its not even personal. people put the slightest emotions they get on a pedestal as a valid reason to do and justify anything.
- tyingq 10y ago
  No it's not abuse. But it is an opening line that might hint the possibility of a customer that's just never going to be happy. And my suggested recourse would be to refund them immediately once you recognize that's the case.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    "An opening line that might hint the possibility..." I'm sorry, but at some point you're just expecting the worst possible outcome from a relatively banal situation. Your role in that context would be show an interest and defuse the situation, and only after that failed to have an effect should you start to be concerned that this is a toxic case. If you approach everyone who so much as barks like they're a mad dog, you'll end up meeting a shocking number "mad dogs".
    - tyingq 10y ago
      Okay. It's a rude opener. I'll admit to that biasing my view. Starting a conversation with "your product is shit" sets a certain tone. You're likely to get better service from me if you're polite. I don't feel badly about that.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        You'll never get anything from me except polite interactions in that arena, and at least in part for just that reason. The problem is that in any B2C you'll have a range of people, a Normal Distribution, and that includes a fair number of angry, entitled, rude, dicks. Plenty of them can be safely, and easily defused; and the truth is that a lot of people "come in hot" especially online. I respect your position, I do, and I wish it were the standard, but realistically it puts you at a potential disadvantage.

by M_Grey 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago

Well, his opening remark on the forum ended in "wondering what kind of piece of shit I just purchased here.." That appears to be before any contact with anyone at all. That, alone, doesn't cross a line. But it is a clue that the interaction might quickly lead down a path where you choose to part ways. I'd have been initially polite, helpful, try to fix the issue, etc. But there would be some line where I'd stop.

M_Grey 10y ago
Impolite and "toxic customer"/"Thief" are worlds apart. If you can't deal with a broad selection of the average public, don't sell to them. It's really that simple, and the business world selects heavily against people who think that their product or their fiefdom is excepted form that rule.
- tyingq 10y ago
  I can see that viewpoint but there are successful businesses that draw the line in a different place than you do.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    It's not about the lines that I draw or that anyone draws, it's about the fundamental power asymmetry in customer-business relationships. Obviously a bar or a B&B have to consider the whole pool of customers, but if you're in the business of selling someone an IoT garage door opener...
    - tyingq 10y ago
      I admit that others view it differently. But I'm not apologetic about the idea that a business can choose how much rude behavior to tolerate. Especially if I'm willing to refund without return of the product.
      - trmsw 10y ago
        Calling a thing a "piece of shit" and leaving a critical review isn't rude behaviour. This isn't tea time at Buckingham Palace.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Your call, I suppose it's subjective. But I personally consider it to be rude. Would it be an appropriate support response to suggest that maybe their phone is a piece of shit?
        trmsw 10y ago
        It's only rude if you believe that the customer has to respect the hard work and good intentions that went into the product, and make allowances if it doesn't "just work". They don't.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Similarly, I don't have to make allowances for people that can't manage basic civility. I wouldn't send back food with a "this is shit" comment at a restaurant. Even a fast food place. Because I'm interacting with a human being, and see no reason to be a jerk. As a side bonus, "sorry, this tastes bad, could I get something else?" has a higher likelihood of resolving the problem.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]

zobzu 10y ago

"fuck this product" is also not abuse. its not even personal. people put the slightest emotions they get on a pedestal as a valid reason to do and justify anything.

tyingq 10y ago
No it's not abuse. But it is an opening line that might hint the possibility of a customer that's just never going to be happy. And my suggested recourse would be to refund them immediately once you recognize that's the case.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  "An opening line that might hint the possibility..." I'm sorry, but at some point you're just expecting the worst possible outcome from a relatively banal situation. Your role in that context would be show an interest and defuse the situation, and only after that failed to have an effect should you start to be concerned that this is a toxic case. If you approach everyone who so much as barks like they're a mad dog, you'll end up meeting a shocking number "mad dogs".
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Okay. It's a rude opener. I'll admit to that biasing my view. Starting a conversation with "your product is shit" sets a certain tone. You're likely to get better service from me if you're polite. I don't feel badly about that.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      You'll never get anything from me except polite interactions in that arena, and at least in part for just that reason. The problem is that in any B2C you'll have a range of people, a Normal Distribution, and that includes a fair number of angry, entitled, rude, dicks. Plenty of them can be safely, and easily defused; and the truth is that a lot of people "come in hot" especially online. I respect your position, I do, and I wish it were the standard, but realistically it puts you at a potential disadvantage.