3 ms·

I don't think it is as much being told they cannot do science (as incapable) as much as it is being told they are odd and less desirable (consciously or subcons

by pwhelan 16y ago

I don't think it is as much being told they cannot do science (as incapable) as much as it is being told they are odd and less desirable (consciously or subconsciously) if they embrace math/science/tech. It also depends on the woman how difficult these standards of beauty are achieving. Many of my female friends are engineers (comp, ee, cheg) and look excellent. Not because they "dress to the nines" but because they put on a little makeup and a nice shirt. The ones who were less accepted socially tended to be those who didn't take care of themselves, including the men.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
It may not be that girls are told they are less desirable if they embrace math/science/tech. I'm very skeptical of that being a widely held belief. It may simply be that girls do not wish to associate with others they perceive as less desirable. http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/0901/pages/geeks/geeks.html http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/0901/pages/geeks/geeks.html
- pwhelan 16y ago
  True, however there is something saying "the people who do this are less desirable", thus if you do that you are less desirable. Why these people are considered less desirable is debatable. Also, in science don't we include medical personnel? In math, quantitative finance? I would hardly say those people are perceived as less desirable. Also, as a comp sci guy, I don't like the "tolerance for all quirks" thing we have going in some ways. It is great that we are passionate about our stuff, but there is social decorum that we should follow. Showers, general professionalism, and paying attention to how others feel about things -- these should not be considered polite suggestions but requisites.
  - lsc 16y ago
    > but there is social decorum that we should follow. really? In business, politics and law, we tolerate a lot of manipulative, egotistical assholes. why shouldn't the nerds get a break on some things, too? If I can save 20 minutes in the morning by throwing on jeans and a T shirt and not messing with my hair, really, what's the problem with that? why should I waste time/money on dressing nicely? Really, I think the fact that nerds aren't held to the same level of 'professional appearance' as others of the same pay grade is that manipulating others, generally speaking, isn't our job. The fact of the matter is, how someone dresses is simply not a good indicator of honesty, skill, or anything else you might actually care about. I know my first impression, when I see someone in a suit, is "who is he trying to impress? and why can't he do it with his skills, rather than his appearance?"
    - pwhelan 16y ago
      The only problem is when you see someone in a suit "who is he trying to impress?" is not the same thought at 99% of people in life -- and many of those people are the people who decide if we are serious about what we are doing. I would love if life were a pure meritocracy filled with lollipops, puppy dogs and mediocre metaphors... but it isn't. There isn't a great way to determine the difference between honest, skill or anything else -- but if one person is willing to put on a suit and the other wants to opine about his irrelevant ethics... well we know who usually gets the job. Let us also face the fact that we get a lot of egotistical assholes in tech -- except they do not bathe or make an attempt at decorum which is why people think we are so undesirable (according to the above). And the fact that someone is a slovenly self centered jackass that acts like a jerk to anyone who isn't a linux/vim fanboi that does xyz -- that doesn't mean he brings anymore value to a company of any size. In my experience the best people have been pretty chill, bathe every day, observe general social decorum, and try not to act like jerks. I refer to both PhD and those sans BS.
      - lsc 16y ago
        >I would love if life were a pure meritocracy filled with lollipops, puppy dogs and mediocre metaphors... but it isn't. There isn't a great way to determine the difference between honest, skill or anything else -- but if one person is willing to put on a suit and the other wants to opine about his irrelevant ethics... well we know who usually gets the job. I don't remember the last time I saw an experienced SysAdmin or Programmer interview in a suit and get the job. No, wait, I do. It was shortly after the .com crash. the applicant was mostly a visual basic programmer. Really old guy who was missing his index finger. He got the job, too, and was pretty good (he was doing something for our accounting systems, if I remember right) As I recall, I recommended the guy (It wasn't my decision, but being one of the other programmers, I got to make a recommendation) because he brought actual code to the interview, which is something else that is at least moderately unusual (not as unusual as the suit, but certainly not common.) A nice shirt? sure. A tie? well, maybe. but a full on suit, from what I've seen, is pretty rare for technical positions, even during the interview. Now, i've probably only participated in maybe 50 interviews for 'real companies' so my sample size isn't huge. it's possible that I just haven't seen the suits.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    People in medicine are, I think, considered desirable. There is also no shortage of women in medicine. As for quant finance, most people outside of technology or finance barely know it exists. Obviously very few people hold sterotypes about it.
    - pwhelan 16y ago
      Excellent point on quants that I didn't think about it. The only stereotype I have is that I hate them because I wish I had their money but I wasn't old enough to cash in.

by pwhelan 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

It may not be that girls are told they are less desirable if they embrace math/science/tech. I'm very skeptical of that being a widely held belief. It may simply be that girls do not wish to associate with others they perceive as less desirable. http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/0901/pages/geeks/geeks.html http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/0901/pages/geeks/geeks.html

pwhelan 16y ago
True, however there is something saying "the people who do this are less desirable", thus if you do that you are less desirable. Why these people are considered less desirable is debatable. Also, in science don't we include medical personnel? In math, quantitative finance? I would hardly say those people are perceived as less desirable. Also, as a comp sci guy, I don't like the "tolerance for all quirks" thing we have going in some ways. It is great that we are passionate about our stuff, but there is social decorum that we should follow. Showers, general professionalism, and paying attention to how others feel about things -- these should not be considered polite suggestions but requisites.
- lsc 16y ago
  > but there is social decorum that we should follow. really? In business, politics and law, we tolerate a lot of manipulative, egotistical assholes. why shouldn't the nerds get a break on some things, too? If I can save 20 minutes in the morning by throwing on jeans and a T shirt and not messing with my hair, really, what's the problem with that? why should I waste time/money on dressing nicely? Really, I think the fact that nerds aren't held to the same level of 'professional appearance' as others of the same pay grade is that manipulating others, generally speaking, isn't our job. The fact of the matter is, how someone dresses is simply not a good indicator of honesty, skill, or anything else you might actually care about. I know my first impression, when I see someone in a suit, is "who is he trying to impress? and why can't he do it with his skills, rather than his appearance?"
  - pwhelan 16y ago
    The only problem is when you see someone in a suit "who is he trying to impress?" is not the same thought at 99% of people in life -- and many of those people are the people who decide if we are serious about what we are doing. I would love if life were a pure meritocracy filled with lollipops, puppy dogs and mediocre metaphors... but it isn't. There isn't a great way to determine the difference between honest, skill or anything else -- but if one person is willing to put on a suit and the other wants to opine about his irrelevant ethics... well we know who usually gets the job. Let us also face the fact that we get a lot of egotistical assholes in tech -- except they do not bathe or make an attempt at decorum which is why people think we are so undesirable (according to the above). And the fact that someone is a slovenly self centered jackass that acts like a jerk to anyone who isn't a linux/vim fanboi that does xyz -- that doesn't mean he brings anymore value to a company of any size. In my experience the best people have been pretty chill, bathe every day, observe general social decorum, and try not to act like jerks. I refer to both PhD and those sans BS.
    - lsc 16y ago
      >I would love if life were a pure meritocracy filled with lollipops, puppy dogs and mediocre metaphors... but it isn't. There isn't a great way to determine the difference between honest, skill or anything else -- but if one person is willing to put on a suit and the other wants to opine about his irrelevant ethics... well we know who usually gets the job. I don't remember the last time I saw an experienced SysAdmin or Programmer interview in a suit and get the job. No, wait, I do. It was shortly after the .com crash. the applicant was mostly a visual basic programmer. Really old guy who was missing his index finger. He got the job, too, and was pretty good (he was doing something for our accounting systems, if I remember right) As I recall, I recommended the guy (It wasn't my decision, but being one of the other programmers, I got to make a recommendation) because he brought actual code to the interview, which is something else that is at least moderately unusual (not as unusual as the suit, but certainly not common.) A nice shirt? sure. A tie? well, maybe. but a full on suit, from what I've seen, is pretty rare for technical positions, even during the interview. Now, i've probably only participated in maybe 50 interviews for 'real companies' so my sample size isn't huge. it's possible that I just haven't seen the suits.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  People in medicine are, I think, considered desirable. There is also no shortage of women in medicine. As for quant finance, most people outside of technology or finance barely know it exists. Obviously very few people hold sterotypes about it.
  - pwhelan 16y ago
    Excellent point on quants that I didn't think about it. The only stereotype I have is that I hate them because I wish I had their money but I wasn't old enough to cash in.