6 ms·

Republicans didn’t just strip away Internet privacy rights

39 points by czottmann 10y ago

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
Pai is an unapologetic partisan hack. In short, the Obama administration fractured our nation’s online privacy law, and it is our job to fix it. We pledge to the American people that we will do just that. Gee, I can't help notice you don't have a replacement plan on the table. Kinda like AHCA. Kinda like every other "repeal and replace" initiative you guys have put forward only to pull a bait-and-switch and stop after the "repeal" half. That the WashingtonPost even gives him a platform to spew this garbage does more harm than good.
SubZero 10y ago
How much validity is there to the FCC's statement that privacy regulation of the internet should be left to the FTC, and that the FTC had existing privacy regulations?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Close to zero. The FTC privacy regulations were struck down by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals last year in AT&T Mobility v. FTC, in which the court ruled only the FTC had no authority to regulate activities of entities with common carrier status, even for activities for which they are not common carriers. So, even leaving aside the Open Internet Order reclassifying broadband as a common carrier service, ISPs that are telcos and for that reason have common carrier status are immune to FTC regulation. That ruling was the reason.The outgoing FCC majority adopted the privacy regulations it did late last year; they were replacements for the FTC orders that were struck down.
shawnee_ 10y ago
Pai's logic is flawed in so many ways. But in 2015, the FCC decided to treat the Internet like a public utility, taking away the FTC’s ability to police the privacy practices of broadband providers. The decision to treat it like a public utility had almost nothing to do with privacy or "policing the privacy practices of broadband providers" and almost everything to do with rekindling the war on Net Neutrality.[1]. This move -- like pretty much everything else this administration is doing -- was done to appease and strengthen oligopoly power. It will ultimately hurt small upstarts in the "ISP /broadband delivery" category[2] (who vehemently opposed the stripping of this legislation), and it will make it orders of magnitude harder for small upstarts whose business may only benefit or scale with "neutral" access to the internet. In oligopoly situations there are few, if any, choices available to switch to when said provider oversteps is bounds and decides to just start charging everybody more based on the kind of traffic they request... "because it can". Everything to do with everything on the Internet is going to get astoundingly more expensive very soon. Pai does not understand small business. And it's worth noting that this is probably because he worked for Verizon as an attorney. Though despite his government appointment, he does not seem to have switched his mindset away from that to the best interests of the American people in mind with his policy agendas. [1] [https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/20150219/07100630069/fcc-commissioner-ajit-pai-is-leading-incoherent-facts-optional-last-minute-war-net-neutralityfor-american-people.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/2015021... [2] http://bgr.com/2017/04/03/twc-charter-merger-fcc-rules-ajit-pai/ http://bgr.com/2017/04/03/twc-charter-merger-fcc-rules-ajit-...]
- hrxn 10y ago
  > This move -- like pretty much everything else this administration is doing -- was done to appease and strengthen oligopoly power. Can you prove this?
- ams6110 10y ago
  I've got to say that my Comcast home internet is already bordering on "not worth the money" if it gets any more expensive I will cancel it and just use the free wifi that is available at almost any cafe or coffee shop.
  - josefresco 10y ago
    With a VPN of course ... right?
    - ams6110 10y ago
      I probably would not. Anything work related is already done over ssh, so effectively that's a VPN.
- rpedroso 10y ago
  Pai makes a lot of questionable arguments: The FCC’s regulations weren’t about protecting consumers’ privacy. They were about government picking winners and losers in the marketplace. If two online companies have access to the same data about your Internet usage, why should the federal government give one company greater leeway to use it than the other? 1. Is he implying that the previous FCC was intentionally boosting content providers over ISPs? What motivation would they even have for doing this? 2. Content providers and ISPs do not directly compete with each other in the course of their primary business, so in what respect does the rule create winners and losers in the marketplace? I suppose he could mean in the advertising marketplace. I guess I would prefer that both Facebook and Comcast be losers in that marketplace though. 3. Two online companies do not have access to the same data. Facebook has data + metadata for any interaction you have with their platform. Your ISP has metadata for interactions you have with any platform, along with data for any plaintext interactions. This is a massive difference in scale. Users have the choice not to use Facebook, and thus not provide them with data. Users do not have the choice to access the internet without making use of a public utility (i.e. their ISP). He cites an expert saying: Rather, the most commercially valuable information about online users . . . is coming from other contexts,” such as social-media interactions and search terms. I can see how user-shared data might be considered more commercially valuable, but this misses the point about the differences in the kinds of data we are talking about. When someone publishes on social media, they're making an explicit choice to share information with the public. When that same person visits a website, it is not commonly understood that this act might reveal personal information (though end-users ought to be more aware of this). Consider a teenager doing research on pregnancy tests -- they do not intentionally publish information, but the metadata (webpages visited, time of visits, etc) is potentially revealing.
rntz 10y ago
The original title is clearer: "No, Republicans didn't just strip away your Internet privacy rights". The leading "No," makes it clear that it's denying that Republicans took away rights; without it, the "just" suggests it's saying Republicans did more than "just" take away privacy rights. The underlying problem is, of course, the English language. "just" can mean either "immediately prior" (just now) or "merely" (just a friend).
- Recurecur 10y ago
  Yes, the title should be changed to the original. Thanks for pointing it out!
  - toufka 10y ago
    This really should be unflagged, and the title should probably indicate the FCC Chairman is the author: "FCC Chairmain: 'No, Republicans didn’t just strip away Internet privacy rights'"
josefresco 10y ago
"Others argue that ISPs should be treated differently because consumers face a unique lack of choice and competition in the broadband marketplace. But that claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny either. For example, according to one industry analysis, Google dominates desktop search with an estimated 81 percent market share (and 96 percent of the mobile search market), whereas Verizon, the largest mobile broadband provider, holds only an estimated 35 percent of its market." How hard is it to change your search engine? How hard is it to change your ISP?
- wirelessest 10y ago
  Yeah, this argument really undermines his credibility. I do think we need a rational justification for the vote, as there has been some hysteria. If this direct response wasn't that, I don't think we'll get one
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Also loved how they cherry picked Verizon but failed to mention Comcast (largest terrestrial broadband provider by far) or AT&T (their combined cellular and terrestrial footprint is second only to Comcast). Meanwhile, ongoing mergers (Charter has been a continuous target, most recent suitor being TWC) mean fewer and fewer choices. It was at that point I realized this was a partisan polemic and not a balanced analysis.
- mirimir 10y ago
  It's easy to add a VPN.
  - Hnrobert42 10y ago
    That avoíd the question.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      Yes, it does. It's operationally equivalent to changing ISP. I'm not arguing that it's OK for ISPs to collect and sell data. I'm just pointing out an option. There's also the issue that being in the same jurisdiction as your exit ISP may not be such a great idea.
tboyd47 10y ago
I clicked on this expecting to hear the reasoning behind this legislation explained in layman's terms. Instead I got another rant about the liberal media. I wish we as a society could find a way past the issue of media bias. It pollutes every issue and makes public discourse a lost cause.
- barrkel 10y ago
  All media is necessarily biased because it can't show everything. Ideally we'd weight what we consume by its truth value and build up a multi-dimensional picture of reality. We're living with a president who believes that reality is defined by what's on TV, and that by controlling the narrative, you can control what's perceived to be true. In this mindset, truth in media is irrelevant. What matters is the story the media tells, and if it's in your favour it's good, if it's not it's "biased". Since all media is biased, it's easy to tell the "bias" story; you just pick out the bits of the story that are missing, or overly stressed, or the tone, or whatever. It's an easy game to play.
goerz 10y ago
Can't read, seems to be behind a paywall
etchalon 10y ago
It's starts with an almost reasonable argument that the FTC would be more competent at enforcing privacy policy violations, only to segue in, what amounts to "If Facebook can sell your data, Verizon should get to too!" He rationalizes this by claiming that user-action data (search, post, etc) is more valuable than browsing data. Nothing in this article justifies the change in any manner that benefits consumers. In fact, it explicitly states the change was all about helping ISPs make money.
phkahler 10y ago
Wow, the article itself is a spin piece like the ones it claims came out recently. Saying that ISPs should not be regulated because Google or Facebook isn't is totally disingenuous. Everything HAS to go through your ISP, there is not choice. They even claim there IS choice in ISPs which is blatantly false for a lot of people, and very limited for everyone else. The ISP should provide a way to route and transfer data and nothing more. They are not a content provider and they are not an ad provider - but they want to be. What they really want is to implement MITM attacks to gather data and ad-injection for additional revenue. We shall have to overcome that in the near future too.
josefresco 10y ago
Why was this flagged? It was #3-4 when I commented and now poof it's gone. What is the point of the flag function if no editors/admins review the submissions? Wouldn't a downvote suffice and also prevent malicious flagging?
- zzalpha 10y ago
  I'm a little surprised by that, myself. I'm normally one to push for keeping political stuff off of HN, but that's when it's not related to the tech industry. But this would seem like exactly the kind of political topic that should be discussed here...
vorotato 10y ago
This author is trash and should be ashamed of themselves. Downvote it to hell but at least I'm honest with myself about what's going down. Changing your ISP is harder than changing insurance, that is to say it's often impossible. Tip for republicans, you can say you don't care, you can say you didn't want it to happen, but don't deny the reality of what happened. That just makes you look stupid.
- toufka 10y ago
  The author is the FCC Chairman.
payne92 10y ago
This should not be flagged. Even if you consider the argument flawed or disagree with it for other reasons, it's REALLY important to hear viewpoints from those in a position to set policy.
tzs 10y ago
Interesting YouGov poll on this: http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_HP_Online_Privacy_20170330.pdf http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_HP_Online_Privacy_... Particularly interesting is how it breaks down along party lines. There is almost no difference between Democrats and Republicans on most of the questions. 83% of Democrats and 84% of Republicans are very or somewhat concerned about the privacy of their information online. 82% of D and 84% of R say no to ISPs sharing personal information without permission. 8% of D and 8% of R say yes to it. The rest are not sure. 72% of D and 72% of R say that the FCC's privacy rules should be allowed to go into effect. 80% of D and 75% of R said that Trump should veto the bill to overturn the FCC's rules. The age and race breakdowns were also interesting, with older people more concerned about privacy than younger people, and whites more concerned than blacks or hispanics.

39 points by czottmann 10y ago

Pai is an unapologetic partisan hack. In short, the Obama administration fractured our nation’s online privacy law, and it is our job to fix it. We pledge to the American people that we will do just that. Gee, I can't help notice you don't have a replacement plan on the table. Kinda like AHCA. Kinda like every other "repeal and replace" initiative you guys have put forward only to pull a bait-and-switch and stop after the "repeal" half. That the WashingtonPost even gives him a platform to spew this garbage does more harm than good.

SubZero 10y ago

How much validity is there to the FCC's statement that privacy regulation of the internet should be left to the FTC, and that the FTC had existing privacy regulations?

dragonwriter 10y ago
Close to zero. The FTC privacy regulations were struck down by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals last year in AT&T Mobility v. FTC, in which the court ruled only the FTC had no authority to regulate activities of entities with common carrier status, even for activities for which they are not common carriers. So, even leaving aside the Open Internet Order reclassifying broadband as a common carrier service, ISPs that are telcos and for that reason have common carrier status are immune to FTC regulation. That ruling was the reason.The outgoing FCC majority adopted the privacy regulations it did late last year; they were replacements for the FTC orders that were struck down.

shawnee_ 10y ago

Pai's logic is flawed in so many ways. But in 2015, the FCC decided to treat the Internet like a public utility, taking away the FTC’s ability to police the privacy practices of broadband providers. The decision to treat it like a public utility had almost nothing to do with privacy or "policing the privacy practices of broadband providers" and almost everything to do with rekindling the war on Net Neutrality.[1]. This move -- like pretty much everything else this administration is doing -- was done to appease and strengthen oligopoly power. It will ultimately hurt small upstarts in the "ISP /broadband delivery" category[2] (who vehemently opposed the stripping of this legislation), and it will make it orders of magnitude harder for small upstarts whose business may only benefit or scale with "neutral" access to the internet. In oligopoly situations there are few, if any, choices available to switch to when said provider oversteps is bounds and decides to just start charging everybody more based on the kind of traffic they request... "because it can". Everything to do with everything on the Internet is going to get astoundingly more expensive very soon. Pai does not understand small business. And it's worth noting that this is probably because he worked for Verizon as an attorney. Though despite his government appointment, he does not seem to have switched his mindset away from that to the best interests of the American people in mind with his policy agendas. [1] [https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/20150219/07100630069/fcc-commissioner-ajit-pai-is-leading-incoherent-facts-optional-last-minute-war-net-neutralityfor-american-people.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/2015021... [2] http://bgr.com/2017/04/03/twc-charter-merger-fcc-rules-ajit-pai/ http://bgr.com/2017/04/03/twc-charter-merger-fcc-rules-ajit-...]

hrxn 10y ago
> This move -- like pretty much everything else this administration is doing -- was done to appease and strengthen oligopoly power. Can you prove this?
ams6110 10y ago
I've got to say that my Comcast home internet is already bordering on "not worth the money" if it gets any more expensive I will cancel it and just use the free wifi that is available at almost any cafe or coffee shop.
- josefresco 10y ago
  With a VPN of course ... right?
  - ams6110 10y ago
    I probably would not. Anything work related is already done over ssh, so effectively that's a VPN.
rpedroso 10y ago
Pai makes a lot of questionable arguments: The FCC’s regulations weren’t about protecting consumers’ privacy. They were about government picking winners and losers in the marketplace. If two online companies have access to the same data about your Internet usage, why should the federal government give one company greater leeway to use it than the other? 1. Is he implying that the previous FCC was intentionally boosting content providers over ISPs? What motivation would they even have for doing this? 2. Content providers and ISPs do not directly compete with each other in the course of their primary business, so in what respect does the rule create winners and losers in the marketplace? I suppose he could mean in the advertising marketplace. I guess I would prefer that both Facebook and Comcast be losers in that marketplace though. 3. Two online companies do not have access to the same data. Facebook has data + metadata for any interaction you have with their platform. Your ISP has metadata for interactions you have with any platform, along with data for any plaintext interactions. This is a massive difference in scale. Users have the choice not to use Facebook, and thus not provide them with data. Users do not have the choice to access the internet without making use of a public utility (i.e. their ISP). He cites an expert saying: Rather, the most commercially valuable information about online users . . . is coming from other contexts,” such as social-media interactions and search terms. I can see how user-shared data might be considered more commercially valuable, but this misses the point about the differences in the kinds of data we are talking about. When someone publishes on social media, they're making an explicit choice to share information with the public. When that same person visits a website, it is not commonly understood that this act might reveal personal information (though end-users ought to be more aware of this). Consider a teenager doing research on pregnancy tests -- they do not intentionally publish information, but the metadata (webpages visited, time of visits, etc) is potentially revealing.

rntz 10y ago

The original title is clearer: "No, Republicans didn't just strip away your Internet privacy rights". The leading "No," makes it clear that it's denying that Republicans took away rights; without it, the "just" suggests it's saying Republicans did more than "just" take away privacy rights. The underlying problem is, of course, the English language. "just" can mean either "immediately prior" (just now) or "merely" (just a friend).

Recurecur 10y ago
Yes, the title should be changed to the original. Thanks for pointing it out!
- toufka 10y ago
  This really should be unflagged, and the title should probably indicate the FCC Chairman is the author: "FCC Chairmain: 'No, Republicans didn’t just strip away Internet privacy rights'"

josefresco 10y ago

"Others argue that ISPs should be treated differently because consumers face a unique lack of choice and competition in the broadband marketplace. But that claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny either. For example, according to one industry analysis, Google dominates desktop search with an estimated 81 percent market share (and 96 percent of the mobile search market), whereas Verizon, the largest mobile broadband provider, holds only an estimated 35 percent of its market." How hard is it to change your search engine? How hard is it to change your ISP?

wirelessest 10y ago
Yeah, this argument really undermines his credibility. I do think we need a rational justification for the vote, as there has been some hysteria. If this direct response wasn't that, I don't think we'll get one
zzalpha 10y ago
Also loved how they cherry picked Verizon but failed to mention Comcast (largest terrestrial broadband provider by far) or AT&T (their combined cellular and terrestrial footprint is second only to Comcast). Meanwhile, ongoing mergers (Charter has been a continuous target, most recent suitor being TWC) mean fewer and fewer choices. It was at that point I realized this was a partisan polemic and not a balanced analysis.
mirimir 10y ago
It's easy to add a VPN.
- Hnrobert42 10y ago
  That avoíd the question.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Yes, it does. It's operationally equivalent to changing ISP. I'm not arguing that it's OK for ISPs to collect and sell data. I'm just pointing out an option. There's also the issue that being in the same jurisdiction as your exit ISP may not be such a great idea.

tboyd47 10y ago

I clicked on this expecting to hear the reasoning behind this legislation explained in layman's terms. Instead I got another rant about the liberal media. I wish we as a society could find a way past the issue of media bias. It pollutes every issue and makes public discourse a lost cause.

barrkel 10y ago
All media is necessarily biased because it can't show everything. Ideally we'd weight what we consume by its truth value and build up a multi-dimensional picture of reality. We're living with a president who believes that reality is defined by what's on TV, and that by controlling the narrative, you can control what's perceived to be true. In this mindset, truth in media is irrelevant. What matters is the story the media tells, and if it's in your favour it's good, if it's not it's "biased". Since all media is biased, it's easy to tell the "bias" story; you just pick out the bits of the story that are missing, or overly stressed, or the tone, or whatever. It's an easy game to play.

goerz 10y ago

Can't read, seems to be behind a paywall

etchalon 10y ago

It's starts with an almost reasonable argument that the FTC would be more competent at enforcing privacy policy violations, only to segue in, what amounts to "If Facebook can sell your data, Verizon should get to too!" He rationalizes this by claiming that user-action data (search, post, etc) is more valuable than browsing data. Nothing in this article justifies the change in any manner that benefits consumers. In fact, it explicitly states the change was all about helping ISPs make money.

phkahler 10y ago

Wow, the article itself is a spin piece like the ones it claims came out recently. Saying that ISPs should not be regulated because Google or Facebook isn't is totally disingenuous. Everything HAS to go through your ISP, there is not choice. They even claim there IS choice in ISPs which is blatantly false for a lot of people, and very limited for everyone else. The ISP should provide a way to route and transfer data and nothing more. They are not a content provider and they are not an ad provider - but they want to be. What they really want is to implement MITM attacks to gather data and ad-injection for additional revenue. We shall have to overcome that in the near future too.

josefresco 10y ago

Why was this flagged? It was #3-4 when I commented and now poof it's gone. What is the point of the flag function if no editors/admins review the submissions? Wouldn't a downvote suffice and also prevent malicious flagging?

zzalpha 10y ago
I'm a little surprised by that, myself. I'm normally one to push for keeping political stuff off of HN, but that's when it's not related to the tech industry. But this would seem like exactly the kind of political topic that should be discussed here...

vorotato 10y ago

This author is trash and should be ashamed of themselves. Downvote it to hell but at least I'm honest with myself about what's going down. Changing your ISP is harder than changing insurance, that is to say it's often impossible. Tip for republicans, you can say you don't care, you can say you didn't want it to happen, but don't deny the reality of what happened. That just makes you look stupid.

toufka 10y ago
The author is the FCC Chairman.

payne92 10y ago

This should not be flagged. Even if you consider the argument flawed or disagree with it for other reasons, it's REALLY important to hear viewpoints from those in a position to set policy.

tzs 10y ago

Interesting YouGov poll on this: http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_HP_Online_Privacy_20170330.pdf http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_HP_Online_Privacy_... Particularly interesting is how it breaks down along party lines. There is almost no difference between Democrats and Republicans on most of the questions. 83% of Democrats and 84% of Republicans are very or somewhat concerned about the privacy of their information online. 82% of D and 84% of R say no to ISPs sharing personal information without permission. 8% of D and 8% of R say yes to it. The rest are not sure. 72% of D and 72% of R say that the FCC's privacy rules should be allowed to go into effect. 80% of D and 75% of R said that Trump should veto the bill to overturn the FCC's rules. The age and race breakdowns were also interesting, with older people more concerned about privacy than younger people, and whites more concerned than blacks or hispanics.