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I don't think a refund is necessarily sufficient legally. A customer has a contract with a supplier. That contract doesn't usually say (whether express or impli

by rlpb 10y ago

I don't think a refund is necessarily sufficient legally. A customer has a contract with a supplier. That contract doesn't usually say (whether express or implied) that the supplier can arbitrarily terminate the contract with just a refund. So doing so would still be in breach of contract. Legally, the remedy for breach of contract is to make the injured party whole, and that includes consequential damages. The customer may suffer consequential damages in excess of the price paid for the product (eg. "After buying your product I bought a new garage door to suit your product and now I have to get a different one to use with your competitor's product since the next best thing requires a different specification"). Offering a full refund is still entirely appropriate of course; I'm just pointing out that the customer doesn't have to accept that as a final settlement.

tyingq 10y ago
>Legally, the remedy for breach of contract is to make the injured party whole I don't see a customer getting a free garage door out of it. Using the refund to buy a competitive product would arguably make them whole. Minus perhaps wasted time. Assuming you parted ways because of their behavior (not a review), they arguably wasted their own time.
- rlpb 10y ago
  > I don't see a customer getting a free garage door out of it. Nor do I. That would imply that the customer had some extra asset at the end. That is beyond making the customer whole, because such a thing presumably has a market value and can be sold, even if just for scrap. > Using the refund to buy a competitive product would arguably make them whole. Not necessarily. If the customer has additional costs that have not been reimbursed, and these costs were incurred as a consequence of the seller's breach of contract despite the customer's reasonable efforts to minimize them, then by definition the customer hasn't been made whole. Search for the meaning of "consequential damages". It's up to the court to decide how to address the balance. It may decide that it isn't reasonable to reimburse some extra costs anyway. And in the US, legal fees won't be reimbursed so the customer may decide to settle for less. But if it does go to court, then in the case that the seller has "fired" the customer unreasonably the court may look upon the customer's claims for consequential damages more favorably.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    I understand "consequential damages", but this is a poor example. It's not the only product in the world that can open a garage door from an app. I can't get a new car if I buy an alternator and it's faulty. Maybe if it damaged the car, but there's no corollary here. Edit: This happens all the time. Amazon "fires" sellers. Hosting companies "fire" people that suffered a DDOS, or similar cases to this one...customers that are snarky with tech support. Paypal "fires" customers at will, often with no details as to why. I've read many of these stories and never heard of a case where someone got something more than actual, direct losses back (like existing account balance).
    - rlpb 10y ago
      You're right; it's a poor example. I wanted to illustrate the principle in general, and had to go with the situation we already had. My point is that in the general case the seller arbitrarily deciding to refund does not constitute an automatic settlement. Some sellers may attempt to adjust the contracts to make this true. Depending on your jurisdiction and the nature of the sale, this may or may not actually change the contract. AFAIK, we have yet to see a clause of "I'll sell you this IoT device for a one-off payment of $X and I can arbitrarily decide to stop it working as long as I pay you $X and nothing more" succeed in court.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        >AFAIK, we have yet to see a clause of "I'll sell you this IoT device for a one-off payment of $X and I can arbitrarily decide to stop it working as long as I pay you $X and nothing more" Not court cases, but IoT customers do get abandoned. Google's Nest bought Revolv and shut it down. As far as I know, they offered nothing at all as compensation. These were $300 devices. No related successful court cases from end users, as far as I know...and that's worse than what I suggested...no refund.
        mring33621 10y ago
        from revolv.com: "The Revolv app and hub don’t work anymore, but we are offering a refund for your Revolv hub. To get your refund, please email us at help@revolv.com." Fair enough?

by rlpb 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago

>Legally, the remedy for breach of contract is to make the injured party whole I don't see a customer getting a free garage door out of it. Using the refund to buy a competitive product would arguably make them whole. Minus perhaps wasted time. Assuming you parted ways because of their behavior (not a review), they arguably wasted their own time.

rlpb 10y ago
> I don't see a customer getting a free garage door out of it. Nor do I. That would imply that the customer had some extra asset at the end. That is beyond making the customer whole, because such a thing presumably has a market value and can be sold, even if just for scrap. > Using the refund to buy a competitive product would arguably make them whole. Not necessarily. If the customer has additional costs that have not been reimbursed, and these costs were incurred as a consequence of the seller's breach of contract despite the customer's reasonable efforts to minimize them, then by definition the customer hasn't been made whole. Search for the meaning of "consequential damages". It's up to the court to decide how to address the balance. It may decide that it isn't reasonable to reimburse some extra costs anyway. And in the US, legal fees won't be reimbursed so the customer may decide to settle for less. But if it does go to court, then in the case that the seller has "fired" the customer unreasonably the court may look upon the customer's claims for consequential damages more favorably.
- tyingq 10y ago
  I understand "consequential damages", but this is a poor example. It's not the only product in the world that can open a garage door from an app. I can't get a new car if I buy an alternator and it's faulty. Maybe if it damaged the car, but there's no corollary here. Edit: This happens all the time. Amazon "fires" sellers. Hosting companies "fire" people that suffered a DDOS, or similar cases to this one...customers that are snarky with tech support. Paypal "fires" customers at will, often with no details as to why. I've read many of these stories and never heard of a case where someone got something more than actual, direct losses back (like existing account balance).
  - rlpb 10y ago
    You're right; it's a poor example. I wanted to illustrate the principle in general, and had to go with the situation we already had. My point is that in the general case the seller arbitrarily deciding to refund does not constitute an automatic settlement. Some sellers may attempt to adjust the contracts to make this true. Depending on your jurisdiction and the nature of the sale, this may or may not actually change the contract. AFAIK, we have yet to see a clause of "I'll sell you this IoT device for a one-off payment of $X and I can arbitrarily decide to stop it working as long as I pay you $X and nothing more" succeed in court.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      >AFAIK, we have yet to see a clause of "I'll sell you this IoT device for a one-off payment of $X and I can arbitrarily decide to stop it working as long as I pay you $X and nothing more" Not court cases, but IoT customers do get abandoned. Google's Nest bought Revolv and shut it down. As far as I know, they offered nothing at all as compensation. These were $300 devices. No related successful court cases from end users, as far as I know...and that's worse than what I suggested...no refund.
      - mring33621 10y ago
        from revolv.com: "The Revolv app and hub don’t work anymore, but we are offering a refund for your Revolv hub. To get your refund, please email us at help@revolv.com." Fair enough?