7 ms·

One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" cloud management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and

by syshum 10y ago

One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" cloud management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and get access to "the cloud" for life for no additional fee So the cloud services must be continually supported by selling new devices at an exponentially increasing rate to support both old and new customers.. In other markets this is called a pyramid scheme where new investors pay off old investors... I will not buy a IoT product that does not some with a Self Hosted management option, preferably open source, but at minimum installable binaries to run on my own server. If they want to provide their own service for the less technical clients more power to them, but for me self hosted or no buy

ams6110 10y ago
100% agree, though personally I make it a bit simpler and just stop with "I will not buy an IoT product."
rycfan 10y ago
Why an exponentially increasing rate? A device like this doesn't use much storage, any logs it keeps can be rotated out after a certain duration, and the cost of storage goes down over time, not up. So storing the same amount of data 5 years from now will be less expensive, not more expensive, than today. In addition, there are things called annuities, where the purchase price today can have enough set aside to be self-sustaining. Not saying they've done that in this case, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
You know what really bugs me about the whole affair? And granted. I didn't look into this specific product, but Why the hell do I need cloud storage at all for a fucking garage door opener?
- tezza 10y ago
  "Cloud" is now what they used to call "centralised control via https callbacks and polling"
- soneil 10y ago
  Having zero knowledge of this product other than TFA, but being familiar with similar systems; It's not an unusual requirement for a consumer device that's app-driven. If you're within the same network, the service can be discovered and all's fine. But if you're on cellular, you hit walls - you don't want to open external ports for these notoriously insecure devices, and discovery outside the network is unsolved. So it's quite normal to have the device poll a hosted service, waiting for a callback, and the cellular application reaches the same hosted service. But to do so, you need a dependable and trustworthy hosted service.
  - CaptainZapp 10y ago
    Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. But the issue goes somewhat further. Why does a garage door opener needs to be app dependant in the first place? I don't mean to come out as a luddite and can totally see a place for app driven objects in an IoT network, specifically in the scope of home automation - and control. But for a garage door opener? Why exactly does it need to be controlled by an app? Do you ever need to control your garage door, while, for example at work? Isn't that just adding an additional layer of complexity, potential problems and a vengeful company between you and your garage door?
    - soneil 10y ago
      I guess that depends on your wifi. I have a heavy concrete construction, so with my car in the driveway I still wouldn't get wifi - let alone on the street, if I want it to open in time to pull straight in. (for the actual value of this, I guess you'd have to ask the people who bought it. But replacing your 'clicker' with your phone, does appear to be the entire goal of the product - and "not in wifi range" could mean 100 meters away just as easily as 100 miles away)
    - syshum 10y ago
      > Do you ever need to control your garage door, while, for example at work? Use cases include - Closing the door because you forgot to close it when you left, or a child forgot to close and you notice on your Security system - Monitoring your system remotely and letting in 3rd parties with out giving them access directly - getting alerts when your door is open and closed
- dickbasedregex 10y ago
  You need 3rd party cloud access so the stuff in your garage can be more easily stolen of course. Just like I need my twitter followers to know when my toast is done so my toaster needs a wifi connection.
- woliveirajr 10y ago
  Because "you" want to sell something to the average Joe or grandma, who wants to just plug it to the power and to the garage, and be done. There are many cases where the cell phone won't be in the same WiFi of the appliance and on those cases you can: 1 - use some intermediate service: cell phone app <--> cloud <--> appliance 2 - Cell phone app <--> VPN to your WiFi network <--> appliance 3 - Cell phone app <--> router/modem with open ports or redirect ports ou DMZ <--> appliance. The solution "1" is under your (seller) control, so that it's easy to provide. Solutions 2 and 3 (and perhaps some others) need intervention from the customer, in some complicated settings. Use it and you'll surely limit your market. The first (second?) company that creates a protocol fro their modem/router that allows a simple configuration of IoT devices to your cell will make money. You know, like WPS was created to make it easy to connect new devices to your WiFi.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    Or you could make an old-fashioned remote-control garage opener with no app, no phone, no web browser, and fewer security holes.
    - decwakeboarder 10y ago
      The entire point of Garadget is to add control of your garage door over the internet...
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        Some products are better off not existing at all. A lot of IoT devices are in that category.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Or just add a 433MHz and 868MHz radios to phones. Number of usages will be countless. (Ways to have fun with that will be countless too.)
  - rubidium 10y ago
    In other words, smarthomes need smart hubs for the average consumer.
na85 10y ago
>One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" butt management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and get access to "my butt" for life for no additional fee I love Cloud to Butt.

by syshum 10y ago

ams6110 10y ago

100% agree, though personally I make it a bit simpler and just stop with "I will not buy an IoT product."

rycfan 10y ago

Why an exponentially increasing rate? A device like this doesn't use much storage, any logs it keeps can be rotated out after a certain duration, and the cost of storage goes down over time, not up. So storing the same amount of data 5 years from now will be less expensive, not more expensive, than today. In addition, there are things called annuities, where the purchase price today can have enough set aside to be self-sustaining. Not saying they've done that in this case, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

CaptainZapp 10y ago

You know what really bugs me about the whole affair? And granted. I didn't look into this specific product, but Why the hell do I need cloud storage at all for a fucking garage door opener?

tezza 10y ago
"Cloud" is now what they used to call "centralised control via https callbacks and polling"
soneil 10y ago
Having zero knowledge of this product other than TFA, but being familiar with similar systems; It's not an unusual requirement for a consumer device that's app-driven. If you're within the same network, the service can be discovered and all's fine. But if you're on cellular, you hit walls - you don't want to open external ports for these notoriously insecure devices, and discovery outside the network is unsolved. So it's quite normal to have the device poll a hosted service, waiting for a callback, and the cellular application reaches the same hosted service. But to do so, you need a dependable and trustworthy hosted service.
- CaptainZapp 10y ago
  Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. But the issue goes somewhat further. Why does a garage door opener needs to be app dependant in the first place? I don't mean to come out as a luddite and can totally see a place for app driven objects in an IoT network, specifically in the scope of home automation - and control. But for a garage door opener? Why exactly does it need to be controlled by an app? Do you ever need to control your garage door, while, for example at work? Isn't that just adding an additional layer of complexity, potential problems and a vengeful company between you and your garage door?
  - soneil 10y ago
    I guess that depends on your wifi. I have a heavy concrete construction, so with my car in the driveway I still wouldn't get wifi - let alone on the street, if I want it to open in time to pull straight in. (for the actual value of this, I guess you'd have to ask the people who bought it. But replacing your 'clicker' with your phone, does appear to be the entire goal of the product - and "not in wifi range" could mean 100 meters away just as easily as 100 miles away)
  - syshum 10y ago
    > Do you ever need to control your garage door, while, for example at work? Use cases include - Closing the door because you forgot to close it when you left, or a child forgot to close and you notice on your Security system - Monitoring your system remotely and letting in 3rd parties with out giving them access directly - getting alerts when your door is open and closed
dickbasedregex 10y ago
You need 3rd party cloud access so the stuff in your garage can be more easily stolen of course. Just like I need my twitter followers to know when my toast is done so my toaster needs a wifi connection.
woliveirajr 10y ago
Because "you" want to sell something to the average Joe or grandma, who wants to just plug it to the power and to the garage, and be done. There are many cases where the cell phone won't be in the same WiFi of the appliance and on those cases you can: 1 - use some intermediate service: cell phone app <--> cloud <--> appliance 2 - Cell phone app <--> VPN to your WiFi network <--> appliance 3 - Cell phone app <--> router/modem with open ports or redirect ports ou DMZ <--> appliance. The solution "1" is under your (seller) control, so that it's easy to provide. Solutions 2 and 3 (and perhaps some others) need intervention from the customer, in some complicated settings. Use it and you'll surely limit your market. The first (second?) company that creates a protocol fro their modem/router that allows a simple configuration of IoT devices to your cell will make money. You know, like WPS was created to make it easy to connect new devices to your WiFi.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Or you could make an old-fashioned remote-control garage opener with no app, no phone, no web browser, and fewer security holes.
  - decwakeboarder 10y ago
    The entire point of Garadget is to add control of your garage door over the internet...
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Some products are better off not existing at all. A lot of IoT devices are in that category.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Or just add a 433MHz and 868MHz radios to phones. Number of usages will be countless. (Ways to have fun with that will be countless too.)
- rubidium 10y ago
  In other words, smarthomes need smart hubs for the average consumer.

na85 10y ago

>One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" butt management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and get access to "my butt" for life for no additional fee I love Cloud to Butt.