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Error in Case 4: There is no error here, only madness. Then give me madness. The problem is that spreadsheets are one of the most natural interfaces for data

Error in Case 4: There is no error here, only madness. Then give me madness. The problem is that spreadsheets are one of the most natural interfaces for data that we humans have, and even with Microsoft and Google's efforts included, current spreadsheets on a website (SoW) suck. So let's say the y-axis is importance of function and the x-axis is compelling implementation --> voila! Right there, plotted on the graph you can see that this is something that needs to be worked on. I understand your reasoning: you've created a spreadsheet-styled labeled grid in no time and you're pumping your fist, only to find out later that it this is way less than 1% of the effort you will eventually have to dole out to make a basic, respectable spreadsheet. The landscape is littered with 1% efforts that look good until you start working with it. My point, though, is that this area is too important to not try harder, to not see more true attempts.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
csours 10y ago
> spreadsheets are one of the most natural interfaces for data that we humans have Spreadsheets are natural for data, but not for humans. Spreadsheets are excellent for prototyping and data munging; and spreadsheet prototype apps are even fine for personal or small team use. When you get medium team size or multiple small teams that spreadsheets break down. Part of that breakdown is in distribution - which SoW solves. But another part of that breakdown is in not understanding the implicit rules of the spreadsheet app - another team or person will put some garbage in a cell and break the 'app'.
- david927 10y ago
  So the only reason it's not natural for humans is that current implementations of spreadsheets have issues with implicit rules? I don't think that's a failure of the model but merely of the implementation. We can fix that. The model is right.
  - csours 10y ago
    We solve the problems of implicit rules by adding UI and UX so that the rules become explicit. Anything that solves the problem of implicit rules in spreadsheets is a UI or UX solution. The question is, what is the best UI or UX solution? My position is that the best UX is not a spreadsheet. To your point, it is possible that there is an acceptable UI or UX based on spreadsheets. The next question would be, how much more difficult is it to create human driven spreadsheets than to create a classic UX solution (something like an input wizard)?
- repsilat 10y ago
  Spreadsheets are the most intuitive programming environment known to man. Every time you reach for Excel to mung your data, that's opening a repl. The only problem is that Google and Microsoft don't care enough to make them powerful enough to do general purpose computation with, fast enough to build large systems with, versionable enough to enable large teams to use them.
  - csours 10y ago
    > Spreadsheets are the most intuitive programming environment known to man. Every time you reach for Excel to mung your data, that's opening a repl. I absolutely agree - REPLs are excellent for prototyping and exploring data and ideas, and spreadsheets are excellent in that role. Allow me to ask you this then: when was the last time you shipped prototype code? Unless you live dangerously, you don't ship prototype code! > The only problem is that Google and Microsoft don't care enough to make them powerful enough to do general purpose computation with, fast enough to build large systems with, versionable enough to enable large teams to use them. I would counter that a more important problem is "productionalizing" spreadsheets - all of the fiddly things you do to ensure inputs are in the right format, etc, etc, along with testing, securing, and deploying code.
    - csharpminor 10y ago
      You might check out Airtable. They do a good job of this.
Tomino 10y ago
There are projects that try to get into that gap, for example have a look at https://www.ipushpull.com https://www.ipushpull.com

deleted 10y ago

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csours 10y ago

> spreadsheets are one of the most natural interfaces for data that we humans have Spreadsheets are natural for data, but not for humans. Spreadsheets are excellent for prototyping and data munging; and spreadsheet prototype apps are even fine for personal or small team use. When you get medium team size or multiple small teams that spreadsheets break down. Part of that breakdown is in distribution - which SoW solves. But another part of that breakdown is in not understanding the implicit rules of the spreadsheet app - another team or person will put some garbage in a cell and break the 'app'.

david927 10y ago
So the only reason it's not natural for humans is that current implementations of spreadsheets have issues with implicit rules? I don't think that's a failure of the model but merely of the implementation. We can fix that. The model is right.
- csours 10y ago
  We solve the problems of implicit rules by adding UI and UX so that the rules become explicit. Anything that solves the problem of implicit rules in spreadsheets is a UI or UX solution. The question is, what is the best UI or UX solution? My position is that the best UX is not a spreadsheet. To your point, it is possible that there is an acceptable UI or UX based on spreadsheets. The next question would be, how much more difficult is it to create human driven spreadsheets than to create a classic UX solution (something like an input wizard)?
repsilat 10y ago
Spreadsheets are the most intuitive programming environment known to man. Every time you reach for Excel to mung your data, that's opening a repl. The only problem is that Google and Microsoft don't care enough to make them powerful enough to do general purpose computation with, fast enough to build large systems with, versionable enough to enable large teams to use them.
- csours 10y ago
  > Spreadsheets are the most intuitive programming environment known to man. Every time you reach for Excel to mung your data, that's opening a repl. I absolutely agree - REPLs are excellent for prototyping and exploring data and ideas, and spreadsheets are excellent in that role. Allow me to ask you this then: when was the last time you shipped prototype code? Unless you live dangerously, you don't ship prototype code! > The only problem is that Google and Microsoft don't care enough to make them powerful enough to do general purpose computation with, fast enough to build large systems with, versionable enough to enable large teams to use them. I would counter that a more important problem is "productionalizing" spreadsheets - all of the fiddly things you do to ensure inputs are in the right format, etc, etc, along with testing, securing, and deploying code.
  - csharpminor 10y ago
    You might check out Airtable. They do a good job of this.

Tomino 10y ago

There are projects that try to get into that gap, for example have a look at https://www.ipushpull.com https://www.ipushpull.com