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That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should b

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should be additives not necessities.

tlow 10y ago
Seems like a real problem. On one hand legacy devices -- keeping them supported and updating their vulnerabilities for exploitative uses as we saw from Anna Senpai.
Cerium 10y ago
What happens when your nuclear reactor supplier goes out of business? What happens to your handle when your razor blade supplier goes out of business?
- mikeash 10y ago
  The former likely involves long-term support contracts, and the latter is often solved with third parties manufacturing replaceable items.
  - hkmurakami 10y ago
    Sometimes you also buy large stakes in critical suppliers.
- cornellwright 10y ago
  We'll get to find out soon with Westinghouse... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/31/westinghouse-bankruptcy-shakes-the-nuclear-world/#48f17bc72688 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/31/westingho...
  - fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
    Westinghouse is going bankrupt, not going out of business.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      Which means a shedding of liabilities. The question is: which ones.
- djrogers 10y ago
  Not sure about the nuclear reactor non-sequitur, but with a physical device like a razor blade you can buy spares, buy 3rd party, or move on. When an IoT maker adds 'cloud' to their product and makes it inextricably tied to the product's functionality, you have to be able to rely on their ability and willingness to maintain the cloud services for as long as you use the product.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  > What happens to your handle when your razor blade supplier goes out of business? This is an utterly stupid comparison. Razorblades cost less than 10 cents and are disposable by design. You don't spend $100 on a garage door monitor, or $1000+ on an appliance or TV expecting to use it once and throw it away.
- parenthephobia 10y ago
  Yes, I can get electricity from a different provider, or buy a new handle, or indeed get a new garage door opener fitted. The problem is that a cloud-controlled garage door opener creates an unnecessary dependency on the continued existence - and good behaviour - of the vendor, unless one thinks that being able to open it from anywhere in the world is an essential feature of a garage door opener.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    There's more to it? Being a cloud service means there's a simple API to open the garage door, using vanilla networking standards. The IoT is maybe more about just using IP for communications instead of special signaling devices (garage-door-opener radios etc). Even if I just wanted to control the door from my desk at home, I'd still benefit from it being IoT-based.
- Ericson2314 10y ago
  For the latter buy old school razors with single metal blade. Simple commodity with competitive markete.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    It's amazing how much cheaper this (i.e. the double-edge "safety" razor) is, and it's amazing how many people don't know it. Over three years ago, I spent $11 on a pack of 100 blades. I'm not even halfway through the package.
- CaptainZapp 10y ago
  As soon my razor, which works with blades, needs to connect to the internet I'll find a different brand.
droithomme 10y ago
> What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? I agree with you completely. Devices that rely on external servers are not OK. My house's automation uses IoT devices that host their own servers, and/or communicate with those locally that do. I had to build them myself since no company I could find offered anything like this. I'm not a snowflake either, other engineers have done the same. Currently, IMO, the only reasonable solution to home automation is to do everything yourself, from absolute scratch. Commercial solutions are a combination of insidious spyware and stuff that will become useless when the company becomes acquired, dies, or gets mad at you and shuts down a server.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  Servers are necessary because many users have a dynamic IP address. If your product doesn't need to offer remote control, this isn't a problem. But for many products remote control is a significant USP. I've built my own IoT systems, and this is one of the first problems that has to be solved. In an IPv4 world, with domestic networks connected through NAT and a dynamic IP, external servers are going to remain a thing, because the problem cannot be solved without an external server. If IPv6 ever really takes off every device will have its own address, and then all we'll have to worry about is building bullet proof top tier security into an SoC running some version of Linux that was last patched a few years ago.
  - tokenizerrr 10y ago
    Just run a dynamic dns server and have the client update that. Then in the client software default to using your dns infrastructure but let the user override, so when you go out of business they could set up their own dyndns and use that. There is still the security problem of course.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    > In an IPv4 world, with domestic networks connected through NAT and a dynamic IP, external servers are going to remain a thing, because the problem cannot be solved without an external server. It can be solved, but the setup UX might not be great. Wouldn't you just have an "Advanced" UI that allows you to input the public IP address of your home network? The IoT device itself could take it from there and set up the correct firewall and forwarding rules over UPnP, or you can do it yourself. It's a one-time setup. Despite it being dynamic, how often does your ISP-provided IPV4 address actually change?
pasbesoin 10y ago
There's also data leakage, even within the context of "working as expected." Recently, a clerk with the local/county municipality showed be a circa 4 am toilet flush and hand washing at my place-- based upon the single spike and amount of water used. Me slightly creeped out. The new remote-read water meters break down usage to at least the hour level -- that's what the interface she was in provided. I can't go to the can without someone "watching". Do I start "obscuring" or "polluting" my toiletries with random flushes and runs out to the backyard bushes? Maybe I need to roboticize this with a Raspberry Pi (overkill?) or Arduino. (But what random number generator/source do I use?) If I had money to burn, I could install a cistern that I would draw into only periodically in large bursts. My water meter is, via a local 433 MHz uplink, on "the Internet of Things". My friend's dog now has more privacy with regard to his bowel movements.
- tcoff91 10y ago
  What was the context around you being shown that information by the clerk?
  - pasbesoin 10y ago
    I asked about recent increases in my billed amounts and whether my account might be connected to the wrong meter -- something I've read is happening as these systems are deployed. The clerks have a system at the counter that is already signed in at some degree of administrator level. They can pull up any record they wish, on the spot. There appears to be no concern about logging or auditing of access. The clerk just took my account number from the bill I brought with me and pulled up my usage for the last couple of days. Swung the screen around and asked whether it looked familiar (it did). I have access to the same system -- supposedly only for my own account, after I go through an initial sign-up/on process. I wonder how secure that external access to accounts is, but I can't speak to this at this point. My understanding from reading is also that a lot of these systems transmit unencrypted on the 433 MHz band as they communicate up to local aggregators. I didn't bring that up with the clerk. By the way, I was given no choice to opt-out of this deployment.
    - 10y ago
naniid 10y ago
That is exactly why we need more open standards.
syshum 10y ago
One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" cloud management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and get access to "the cloud" for life for no additional fee So the cloud services must be continually supported by selling new devices at an exponentially increasing rate to support both old and new customers.. In other markets this is called a pyramid scheme where new investors pay off old investors... I will not buy a IoT product that does not some with a Self Hosted management option, preferably open source, but at minimum installable binaries to run on my own server. If they want to provide their own service for the less technical clients more power to them, but for me self hosted or no buy
- ams6110 10y ago
  100% agree, though personally I make it a bit simpler and just stop with "I will not buy an IoT product."
- rycfan 10y ago
  Why an exponentially increasing rate? A device like this doesn't use much storage, any logs it keeps can be rotated out after a certain duration, and the cost of storage goes down over time, not up. So storing the same amount of data 5 years from now will be less expensive, not more expensive, than today. In addition, there are things called annuities, where the purchase price today can have enough set aside to be self-sustaining. Not saying they've done that in this case, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
- CaptainZapp 10y ago
  You know what really bugs me about the whole affair? And granted. I didn't look into this specific product, but Why the hell do I need cloud storage at all for a fucking garage door opener?
  - tezza 10y ago
    "Cloud" is now what they used to call "centralised control via https callbacks and polling"
  - 10y ago
839083 10y ago
There was the whole Nest thermostat debacle recently, but no legal precedent as far as I know.
Arwill 10y ago
The point is more that this "company" is most probably run and operated by a single person. Hence he is being upset with not being able to answer support questions at night and being forced to deal with every customer professionally, while being busy with a bunch of other things. But this is probably also calculated into the price of the product, and the fact that its just a garage door device. If it were some medical device, you would expect that its supported by a large company, the device has gone trough mandatory certifications, etc. But that would also show in the price of the product, or the volume at which those products are produced and sold. The mistake is expecting that every gadget maker provides service such a multi-billion dollars corporation can. It simply can't, its a single-person company and that person has its limits. So you either have to deal with some roughness, or you dismiss everything not backed by a large enough company. Not that big companies can't be assholes, they just know how to be assholes less personally.

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should be additives not necessities.

tlow 10y ago

Seems like a real problem. On one hand legacy devices -- keeping them supported and updating their vulnerabilities for exploitative uses as we saw from Anna Senpai.

Cerium 10y ago

What happens when your nuclear reactor supplier goes out of business? What happens to your handle when your razor blade supplier goes out of business?

mikeash 10y ago
The former likely involves long-term support contracts, and the latter is often solved with third parties manufacturing replaceable items.
- hkmurakami 10y ago
  Sometimes you also buy large stakes in critical suppliers.
cornellwright 10y ago
We'll get to find out soon with Westinghouse... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/31/westinghouse-bankruptcy-shakes-the-nuclear-world/#48f17bc72688 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/31/westingho...
- fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
  Westinghouse is going bankrupt, not going out of business.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Which means a shedding of liabilities. The question is: which ones.
djrogers 10y ago
Not sure about the nuclear reactor non-sequitur, but with a physical device like a razor blade you can buy spares, buy 3rd party, or move on. When an IoT maker adds 'cloud' to their product and makes it inextricably tied to the product's functionality, you have to be able to rely on their ability and willingness to maintain the cloud services for as long as you use the product.
jlarocco 10y ago
> What happens to your handle when your razor blade supplier goes out of business? This is an utterly stupid comparison. Razorblades cost less than 10 cents and are disposable by design. You don't spend $100 on a garage door monitor, or $1000+ on an appliance or TV expecting to use it once and throw it away.
parenthephobia 10y ago
Yes, I can get electricity from a different provider, or buy a new handle, or indeed get a new garage door opener fitted. The problem is that a cloud-controlled garage door opener creates an unnecessary dependency on the continued existence - and good behaviour - of the vendor, unless one thinks that being able to open it from anywhere in the world is an essential feature of a garage door opener.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  There's more to it? Being a cloud service means there's a simple API to open the garage door, using vanilla networking standards. The IoT is maybe more about just using IP for communications instead of special signaling devices (garage-door-opener radios etc). Even if I just wanted to control the door from my desk at home, I'd still benefit from it being IoT-based.
Ericson2314 10y ago
For the latter buy old school razors with single metal blade. Simple commodity with competitive markete.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  It's amazing how much cheaper this (i.e. the double-edge "safety" razor) is, and it's amazing how many people don't know it. Over three years ago, I spent $11 on a pack of 100 blades. I'm not even halfway through the package.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
As soon my razor, which works with blades, needs to connect to the internet I'll find a different brand.

droithomme 10y ago

> What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? I agree with you completely. Devices that rely on external servers are not OK. My house's automation uses IoT devices that host their own servers, and/or communicate with those locally that do. I had to build them myself since no company I could find offered anything like this. I'm not a snowflake either, other engineers have done the same. Currently, IMO, the only reasonable solution to home automation is to do everything yourself, from absolute scratch. Commercial solutions are a combination of insidious spyware and stuff that will become useless when the company becomes acquired, dies, or gets mad at you and shuts down a server.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
Servers are necessary because many users have a dynamic IP address. If your product doesn't need to offer remote control, this isn't a problem. But for many products remote control is a significant USP. I've built my own IoT systems, and this is one of the first problems that has to be solved. In an IPv4 world, with domestic networks connected through NAT and a dynamic IP, external servers are going to remain a thing, because the problem cannot be solved without an external server. If IPv6 ever really takes off every device will have its own address, and then all we'll have to worry about is building bullet proof top tier security into an SoC running some version of Linux that was last patched a few years ago.
- tokenizerrr 10y ago
  Just run a dynamic dns server and have the client update that. Then in the client software default to using your dns infrastructure but let the user override, so when you go out of business they could set up their own dyndns and use that. There is still the security problem of course.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  > In an IPv4 world, with domestic networks connected through NAT and a dynamic IP, external servers are going to remain a thing, because the problem cannot be solved without an external server. It can be solved, but the setup UX might not be great. Wouldn't you just have an "Advanced" UI that allows you to input the public IP address of your home network? The IoT device itself could take it from there and set up the correct firewall and forwarding rules over UPnP, or you can do it yourself. It's a one-time setup. Despite it being dynamic, how often does your ISP-provided IPV4 address actually change?

pasbesoin 10y ago

There's also data leakage, even within the context of "working as expected." Recently, a clerk with the local/county municipality showed be a circa 4 am toilet flush and hand washing at my place-- based upon the single spike and amount of water used. Me slightly creeped out. The new remote-read water meters break down usage to at least the hour level -- that's what the interface she was in provided. I can't go to the can without someone "watching". Do I start "obscuring" or "polluting" my toiletries with random flushes and runs out to the backyard bushes? Maybe I need to roboticize this with a Raspberry Pi (overkill?) or Arduino. (But what random number generator/source do I use?) If I had money to burn, I could install a cistern that I would draw into only periodically in large bursts. My water meter is, via a local 433 MHz uplink, on "the Internet of Things". My friend's dog now has more privacy with regard to his bowel movements.

tcoff91 10y ago
What was the context around you being shown that information by the clerk?
- pasbesoin 10y ago
  I asked about recent increases in my billed amounts and whether my account might be connected to the wrong meter -- something I've read is happening as these systems are deployed. The clerks have a system at the counter that is already signed in at some degree of administrator level. They can pull up any record they wish, on the spot. There appears to be no concern about logging or auditing of access. The clerk just took my account number from the bill I brought with me and pulled up my usage for the last couple of days. Swung the screen around and asked whether it looked familiar (it did). I have access to the same system -- supposedly only for my own account, after I go through an initial sign-up/on process. I wonder how secure that external access to accounts is, but I can't speak to this at this point. My understanding from reading is also that a lot of these systems transmit unencrypted on the 433 MHz band as they communicate up to local aggregators. I didn't bring that up with the clerk. By the way, I was given no choice to opt-out of this deployment.
  - 10y ago

naniid 10y ago

That is exactly why we need more open standards.

syshum 10y ago

One of the problems with these devices is they almost always come with "free" cloud management solutions, meaning you pay a one time fee for the hardware, and get access to "the cloud" for life for no additional fee So the cloud services must be continually supported by selling new devices at an exponentially increasing rate to support both old and new customers.. In other markets this is called a pyramid scheme where new investors pay off old investors... I will not buy a IoT product that does not some with a Self Hosted management option, preferably open source, but at minimum installable binaries to run on my own server. If they want to provide their own service for the less technical clients more power to them, but for me self hosted or no buy

ams6110 10y ago
100% agree, though personally I make it a bit simpler and just stop with "I will not buy an IoT product."
rycfan 10y ago
Why an exponentially increasing rate? A device like this doesn't use much storage, any logs it keeps can be rotated out after a certain duration, and the cost of storage goes down over time, not up. So storing the same amount of data 5 years from now will be less expensive, not more expensive, than today. In addition, there are things called annuities, where the purchase price today can have enough set aside to be self-sustaining. Not saying they've done that in this case, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
You know what really bugs me about the whole affair? And granted. I didn't look into this specific product, but Why the hell do I need cloud storage at all for a fucking garage door opener?
- tezza 10y ago
  "Cloud" is now what they used to call "centralised control via https callbacks and polling"
- 10y ago

839083 10y ago

There was the whole Nest thermostat debacle recently, but no legal precedent as far as I know.

Arwill 10y ago

The point is more that this "company" is most probably run and operated by a single person. Hence he is being upset with not being able to answer support questions at night and being forced to deal with every customer professionally, while being busy with a bunch of other things. But this is probably also calculated into the price of the product, and the fact that its just a garage door device. If it were some medical device, you would expect that its supported by a large company, the device has gone trough mandatory certifications, etc. But that would also show in the price of the product, or the volume at which those products are produced and sold. The mistake is expecting that every gadget maker provides service such a multi-billion dollars corporation can. It simply can't, its a single-person company and that person has its limits. So you either have to deal with some roughness, or you dismiss everything not backed by a large enough company. Not that big companies can't be assholes, they just know how to be assholes less personally.

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens​ if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should b

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens​ if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should b

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should b

That's a real the danger of IoT devices. What happens if the company goes out of business, Or the company decides to terminate support? Cloud services should b