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I'm appalled that people on HN are casually discussing ways to squat domains. Have you tried to come up with a good domain name that's not already taken? It's

I'm appalled that people on HN are casually discussing ways to squat domains. Have you tried to come up with a good domain name that's not already taken? It's really freaking difficult, because squatter scumbags have taken practically all of them. There's not much left besides names like "heroku" or "meebo" that are basically just strings of random characters, and working around squatters by concatenating the name you'd actually want with "-ly", "get-" or "-app" is not really a solution. Your business model is extortion.

pier0 16y ago
Real estate in metropolitan centres and downtowns is all taken. Are real estate owners extortionists as well?
- vidarh 16y ago
  In many places there are legal procedures available to expropriate by force land from owners that don't make use of their real estate. Near where I live the local city council has run a campaign for years to get people to notify them about derelict and unoccupied buildings in order for them to be able to expropriate it and resell or lease it to companies or residents that actually wants to use the land. This is exactly because it is recognized that buying and holding land in areas where land is a scarce resource is not in the public interest.
stanley 16y ago
Not saying I agree or disagree with you - but - what is your opinion of real estate investors who own parking lots in crowded urban neighborhoods? If you don't think it's the same thing, I would love to hear your argument.
- axod 16y ago
  There's no location element in domain names. Also there's an indefinite supply of them unlike real estate. The problem is that the real estate investor had to buy that land to make it into a parking lot. That's fine. Others had the opportunity to buy the land and do what they want with it. However, domain names are effectively free. This means that instead of 'whoever wants to pay the best price' getting it, it's simply whoever grabbed it first. In summary, land is priced based on its worth. Domain names are all priced the same at a negligible cost (Initial sale). That's why the domain name system is so broken.
  - riobard 16y ago
    The supply of all domain names is infinite, but the supply of short domain names is definitely finite. That's why it's so damn hard to find good short ones. It doesn't matter how you get the limited resource first. What matters is whether there is an efficient trading system for such resource. You can always buy a domain name from someone you want if you are willing to pay big bucks.
    - alanpca 16y ago
      I'm not sure where this idea of domain names being infinite came from, but it isn't really true[1]. There is a maximum length per top level domain, and also a finite number of top level domains. Until we're allowed to register top level domains, it's going to stay this way. Even then, we will be limited by the maximum allowable characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System [1]
- what 16y ago
  I don't really think it's the same thing. They are making use of the land and providing a service to people (people need to park somewhere), not just trying to sell it to the highest bidder.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
ohashi 16y ago
This is exactly the discussion I expect from HN. It's taking a very methodological approach towards an industry and I approve. I've been in the domain industry for 7+ years now and it's a breath of fresh air to see more people coming to the table with ideas like this (sorry, you aren't the first to use these types of ideas, but I am happy to see more people trying these types of methods). As far as saying they are squatters and extortionists. I am going to have to call bullshit. Cybersquatting is infringing someone's trademark. Unless the author is buying something to infringe on a mark it is NOT CYBERSQUATTING. As far as the extortion claim, it's also bogus. You think you deserve some awesome domain for registration fee because you have some idea? Sorry. The internet isn't about that. We all have ideas and there is no objective way domains could be distributed other than a first-come, first-serve policy. Any sort of 'use' based case is far too big a slippery slope to ever be considered. This sort of attitude seems to be the exact opposite of the author's (which I admire) who has publicized an interesting way to try and find a good domain name on the cheap.
- _delirium 16y ago
  You "refute" his point with a non sequitur, essentially asserting that domain squatters/extortionists aren't scumbags, because there's no good way to ban the practice. But it could still be unsavory even if it's hard to ban. I wouldn't say that the internet is"about" people just grabbing names and doing nothing with them except demanding payments from people who do want to put up actual sites. That's not really having ideas or doing anything useful for anyone; it surely isn't innovative. It might be profitable, but I don't really see any way to argue it's in the hacker spirit or particularly laudable.
  - ohashi 16y ago
    You connect the two extortion and cybersquatting. Again, different things. They can overlap sure, but cybersquatting has a narrow definition. Extortion also does. Buying domains really doesn't meet the definition. As far as doing nothing, they 'do' something. Most have nameservers and resolve to something. As far as demanding payments. That's funny, you want something but don't feel obligated to pay. Nobody is forcing you to buy any particular domain. You simply feel entitled for one reason or another. I think first-come, first-serve is the least worst option and also is in line with the spirit the internet was created. Allowing anyone to compete at minimal cost. Just because you don't get software.com doesn't limit you from selling software. If you really cannot come up with a name or put up some money and buy a decent name perhaps you need to rethink what you're doing.
axod 16y ago
The system is broken. It's basically free to register as many domains as you wish. Personally I've always found that to be a bad idea. How about charging say $500 for domain registration and putting that money into good projects on the net. You'd get far less squatters, people would be more likely to actually use domains they have, and you'd get some revenue to do good work with.
- zefhous 16y ago
  If it cost $500 to register a domain name, I never would have started doing web development. Now it's what I mainly do for a living. I don't think that's the right solution.
  - axod 16y ago
    You seriously wouldn't have bothered? You can't think of any way on gods earth you could ever afford $500 a year for your domain name? Settling for myname.somecompany.com wouldn't have been acceptable to you? I would have. But I would only have bought domain names for things that would actually make money, or be worth it in some other way. The currently system, you have maybe 5% of registered domain names actually in use. The other 95% are being sat on by extortionists trying to extract money from people for them. SSL certs cost more than that. Can you think of any other system where you can buy something for a nominal price, and then sell it for what it's actually worth?
    - semanticist 16y ago
      It's tricky to make a living doing web development if all your clients go 'HOW MUCH FOR A DOMAIN?!' and run away. US$500 for a .com would have set back widespread adoption of the internet immensely, maybe even fatally.
      - axod 16y ago
        and now, they just go "HOW MUCH FOR AN SSL CERT???" and then buy one anyway.

pier0 16y ago

Real estate in metropolitan centres and downtowns is all taken. Are real estate owners extortionists as well?

vidarh 16y ago
In many places there are legal procedures available to expropriate by force land from owners that don't make use of their real estate. Near where I live the local city council has run a campaign for years to get people to notify them about derelict and unoccupied buildings in order for them to be able to expropriate it and resell or lease it to companies or residents that actually wants to use the land. This is exactly because it is recognized that buying and holding land in areas where land is a scarce resource is not in the public interest.

stanley 16y ago

Not saying I agree or disagree with you - but - what is your opinion of real estate investors who own parking lots in crowded urban neighborhoods? If you don't think it's the same thing, I would love to hear your argument.

axod 16y ago
There's no location element in domain names. Also there's an indefinite supply of them unlike real estate. The problem is that the real estate investor had to buy that land to make it into a parking lot. That's fine. Others had the opportunity to buy the land and do what they want with it. However, domain names are effectively free. This means that instead of 'whoever wants to pay the best price' getting it, it's simply whoever grabbed it first. In summary, land is priced based on its worth. Domain names are all priced the same at a negligible cost (Initial sale). That's why the domain name system is so broken.
- riobard 16y ago
  The supply of all domain names is infinite, but the supply of short domain names is definitely finite. That's why it's so damn hard to find good short ones. It doesn't matter how you get the limited resource first. What matters is whether there is an efficient trading system for such resource. You can always buy a domain name from someone you want if you are willing to pay big bucks.
  - alanpca 16y ago
    I'm not sure where this idea of domain names being infinite came from, but it isn't really true[1]. There is a maximum length per top level domain, and also a finite number of top level domains. Until we're allowed to register top level domains, it's going to stay this way. Even then, we will be limited by the maximum allowable characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System [1]
what 16y ago
I don't really think it's the same thing. They are making use of the land and providing a service to people (people need to park somewhere), not just trying to sell it to the highest bidder.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

ohashi 16y ago

This is exactly the discussion I expect from HN. It's taking a very methodological approach towards an industry and I approve. I've been in the domain industry for 7+ years now and it's a breath of fresh air to see more people coming to the table with ideas like this (sorry, you aren't the first to use these types of ideas, but I am happy to see more people trying these types of methods). As far as saying they are squatters and extortionists. I am going to have to call bullshit. Cybersquatting is infringing someone's trademark. Unless the author is buying something to infringe on a mark it is NOT CYBERSQUATTING. As far as the extortion claim, it's also bogus. You think you deserve some awesome domain for registration fee because you have some idea? Sorry. The internet isn't about that. We all have ideas and there is no objective way domains could be distributed other than a first-come, first-serve policy. Any sort of 'use' based case is far too big a slippery slope to ever be considered. This sort of attitude seems to be the exact opposite of the author's (which I admire) who has publicized an interesting way to try and find a good domain name on the cheap.

_delirium 16y ago
You "refute" his point with a non sequitur, essentially asserting that domain squatters/extortionists aren't scumbags, because there's no good way to ban the practice. But it could still be unsavory even if it's hard to ban. I wouldn't say that the internet is"about" people just grabbing names and doing nothing with them except demanding payments from people who do want to put up actual sites. That's not really having ideas or doing anything useful for anyone; it surely isn't innovative. It might be profitable, but I don't really see any way to argue it's in the hacker spirit or particularly laudable.
- ohashi 16y ago
  You connect the two extortion and cybersquatting. Again, different things. They can overlap sure, but cybersquatting has a narrow definition. Extortion also does. Buying domains really doesn't meet the definition. As far as doing nothing, they 'do' something. Most have nameservers and resolve to something. As far as demanding payments. That's funny, you want something but don't feel obligated to pay. Nobody is forcing you to buy any particular domain. You simply feel entitled for one reason or another. I think first-come, first-serve is the least worst option and also is in line with the spirit the internet was created. Allowing anyone to compete at minimal cost. Just because you don't get software.com doesn't limit you from selling software. If you really cannot come up with a name or put up some money and buy a decent name perhaps you need to rethink what you're doing.

axod 16y ago

The system is broken. It's basically free to register as many domains as you wish. Personally I've always found that to be a bad idea. How about charging say $500 for domain registration and putting that money into good projects on the net. You'd get far less squatters, people would be more likely to actually use domains they have, and you'd get some revenue to do good work with.

zefhous 16y ago
If it cost $500 to register a domain name, I never would have started doing web development. Now it's what I mainly do for a living. I don't think that's the right solution.
- axod 16y ago
  You seriously wouldn't have bothered? You can't think of any way on gods earth you could ever afford $500 a year for your domain name? Settling for myname.somecompany.com wouldn't have been acceptable to you? I would have. But I would only have bought domain names for things that would actually make money, or be worth it in some other way. The currently system, you have maybe 5% of registered domain names actually in use. The other 95% are being sat on by extortionists trying to extract money from people for them. SSL certs cost more than that. Can you think of any other system where you can buy something for a nominal price, and then sell it for what it's actually worth?
  - semanticist 16y ago
    It's tricky to make a living doing web development if all your clients go 'HOW MUCH FOR A DOMAIN?!' and run away. US$500 for a .com would have set back widespread adoption of the internet immensely, maybe even fatally.
    - axod 16y ago
      and now, they just go "HOW MUCH FOR AN SSL CERT???" and then buy one anyway.