8 ms·

Apple & HTML5

178 points by taitems 16y ago

instcode 16y ago
Oh Firefox my love!! Plz hurry up!! http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/showcase/typography/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/showcase/typography/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/CanvasPixelManipulation/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/CanvasPixelManipulati... http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/LightTable/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/LightTable/
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- orangecat 16y ago
  If you spoof Chrome's user agent (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64e4e45037f55919&hl=en http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64e4...) it lets you in. Most of the effects work, but video and VR don't.
  - tumult 16y ago
    Check another post I made in this thread -- there are demos on all of the pages that are silently removed if the browser can't support them. You didn't even know you were missing the most impressive ones.
  - SkyMarshal 16y ago
    Cool. The main annoyance is that if I could use Safari too, I would. I used to when I had Windows. But now that I'm on Linux, it's Chrome/FF/Opera or bust. Teasers like this are annoying.
bradgessler 16y ago
Neat idea, very poor implementation. If you try to view the examples in Google Chrome, you'll get a notice that you have to download Safari (http://skitch.com/bradgessler/dgw7p/apple-html5 http://skitch.com/bradgessler/dgw7p/apple-html5) This sets a very poor example for Apple supporting standards.
- haydenchambers 16y ago
  Has this changed or is it only applicable to desktop? (Works fine from nexus one)
- robertmrangel 16y ago
  You are either for us or against us.
- billpaetzke 16y ago
  * Apple might be nudging people to use Safari as their main browser. * Apple might have limited to Safari to keep things simple--to be absolutely sure their demo would work 100%. * I agree that it sucks that their demos are only viewable w/ Safari. But there are plenty of HTML5 demos out there for us :)
  - bradgessler 16y ago
    Its not that it sucks, its that Apple is being misleading about HTML5.
  - instcode 16y ago
    Yes! Why doesn't Apple just let every browser run it and see how superior Safari is in term of HTML5 support? The answer is: Listen up, people! Download our Safari now! Time to ditch your IE, Opera, FF & Chrome!.. Oh, get a life! How mean you always are, Apple!
- jpcx01 16y ago
  Extremely lame that they check the user agent. They probably all work fine in Chrome since it uses webkit also (I believe Chrome uses a newer version even).
  - tumult 16y ago
    They don't.
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- ube 16y ago
  Since both chrome and safari use webkit to render - chrome should work too shouldn't it? Granted - Apple's definition of open is "you should only use Apple products".
  - jsz0 16y ago
    Nope. Google uses a ton of WebKit code, submits a lot of code back into WebKit proper, but they're doing their own stuff too. IIRC they wanted to have GPU acceleration for 3D CSS which apparently WebKit proper doesn't offer at this point or Google thinks they can do it better. You can't safely assume all WebKit based browsers are going to be equal.
    - Zev 16y ago
      WebKit proper doesn't offer at this point I've got a radar open with Apple about Safari's performance (that I know WebKit people have at the very least seen) that essentially boils down to this reason.
      - ryanpetrich 16y ago
        Safari's WebKit has basic hardware acceleration through CoreAnimation (but it only appears to apply to the 3D transform properties)
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- tumult 16y ago
  They don't work in Chrome, or the Chromium nightly snapshots. 3D CSS transforms are needed for many of the demos.
silvestrov 16y ago
It seems like all the samples are targeted at the creative ad bureaus, and the goal is to educate them that HTML5 has all the features they need for their creative sites. First the book publishers, now the ad agencies. The creative sector has really been in SteveJ's focus for the past half year.
shadowsun7 16y ago
+1 for Apple educating people on the awesomeness of HTML5. -1 for being Safari-only. Then again, when you think about it - the Safari-only filter implicitly tells people that Safari is the 'only' browser (or the best browser) currently supporting HTML5; that other browsers have to play catchup.
- thought_alarm 16y ago
  They explicitly say this on the front page: "Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do"
  - papachito 16y ago
    The problem is that they block Chrome 5 too, which is more advanced than Safari 4 (newer version of webkit).
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      Except that it isn't. You can run the demo in Chrome if you want. Someone in this thread did...
      - niceguy101 16y ago
        I tried, but didnt work in Chrome. Not that i want it to. Safari is the only browser on my mac and works almost fine.
        loewenskind 16y ago
        Did you read the thread? At least 3 people (at the time of this reading) have done it. You have to change the user agent setting.
        loewenskind 16y ago
SkyMarshal 16y ago
http://imgur.com/TvSup.png http://imgur.com/TvSup.png sigh... C'mon Apple, we all know Chrome and Chromium can display your HTML5 too. Probably Opera as well.
shadowsun7 16y ago
Source code and developer documentation for the demos found here: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/
- tmsh 16y ago
  Yeah, most work in Chrome (on Linux). Edit: that said, imho, the original link is somewhat misguided. It brings up an interesting question: is Apple responsible for targeting all platforms, or at least all major platforms that conform to a standard? Even if those standards aren't fully implemented among different browsers? And wtf, Apple, I wanna play checkers... Some of the demos run really well on Linux though. But I mean -- are they responsible for all platforms? Or maybe they're just responsible for not misleading people into thinking that they must choose their platform? (The issues in Microsoft's antitrust history rise again.) Anyway, for my money I don't think the future of the web is via the traditional browser -- but I'm sort of in left field in this regard. But yeah, there are maybe deeper issues that haven't really been resolved...
- ciupicri 16y ago
  Btw since when does Apple use PHP[1] instead of WebObjects? [1] http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/typography.php http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/typography.php
  - sjs 16y ago
    Probably for small jobs where WebObjects would be overkill. And they don't use PHP instead of WebObjects they use both PHP and WebOjects, right tool for the job and all that. They also use SproutCore, jQuery (or have used it), Gianduia, and for the WWDC schedule it seems that they use something else, possibly custom.
alanstorm 16y ago
Does anyone know what word we're supposed to use for "Web Development techniques that help ensure a consistency of experience across browsers for all users regardless of browser choice" now that "standards" means something else?
- drusenko 16y ago
  these are experimental standards. they're being actively developed and discussed by many browser makers and the standards bodies, and will be the official standards soon. don't hate on people trying to push the web forward. everybody is going it in a very fair, open, democratic method as trying to implement ideas as quickly as possible.
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willhankinson 16y ago
Where are the games?
- c1sc0 16y ago
  This move is not about games but about iads. (funny side note: iPad insists on spelling that as aids, ouch) apple is pushing htm5 because it will be an essential component of apple's next money-making machine: advertising. And html5 is a great match for advertising: html5 may not be ready for hardcore gaming, but chucking a few banner ads at the peplum, no problem!
tuxychandru 16y ago
Picking a demo from http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ and then clicking on the "View Demo" button allows you to view the demos. Most of them (except VR) seem to work for me in Chrome on Ubuntu (5.0.375.55 beta).
StupidDorks 16y ago
Tried opening an example in chrome and got a download safari message!! Who works in Apple Dickheads?
StupidDorks 16y ago
Fuck this community is full of Apple Fanboys! This is the biggest pile of shit apple has handed out about HTML 5. Download safari? Who works at apple dickheads. Sad to see so many dumb US people using APPlE products
ck2 16y ago
The propaganda and hypocriticism from Apple is staggering. (if you are going to downvote me, at least say why not)
- deleted 16y ago
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- ugh 16y ago
  I think the accusing party has to explain why something is hypocritical and propaganda.
  - ck2 16y ago
    Ah okay. Well for starters, claiming they are using open standards and then trying to block based on user-agent for only Safari.
    - ugh 16y ago
      Fair enough. They should have done feature detection, not user agent sniffing. I just don’t think that’s that big of a deal.
niswilsonnissen 16y ago
Since a lot the html5 modules (and related standards) are still being worked on, we can't expect every tech demo of the new features to work in every browser. Apple wanted to show some very shiny html5 demos and that is fine. There is a good chance that everything shown there will be working across all the major browsers in a not too distant future. (Yes they have have to loose the vendor prefix -webkit first, but that is actually the recommended way to use non-finalized preview features of the emerging standards). I see this as Apple pushing the html5 wagon forward, the same as the other major browser vendors do. Have you tried Internet Explorer 9 Preview demos in other browsers? Finally the html standard is moving forward again after years of standstill. How anybody can complain about that is beyond me. Cheers!
dieterrams 16y ago
Wow. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Google released this with Chrome-only demos. Lots of praise about how Google's leading the way, pushing browsers forward, and you really ought to give Chrome a try. But when Apple does it? A barrage of complaints about how Apple doesn't support standards. It's laughable how transparently people are looking for something, anything to bitch about when it comes to Apple, no matter what they do.
- netcan 16y ago
  C'est la vie Once you're suspect, you're suspect. If you've got the benefit of the doubt, you've got the benefit of the doubt. Overall, that's probably more good then bad. We'd like to think we can be objective, but we probably can't. These crutches are there for a reason.
- buster 16y ago
  So, when MS crippled web development for years with it's browser strategy and proprietary crap it was widely considered very harmful for the web. Now, when Apple does it, it's "pushing the web forward"? We would all use ActiveX controls and be stuck with IE6 if everyone would think like you. And i would argue every company would get the same "hate". Even worse, we've all had this in the past, now we should do everything to keep things a standard and open, because we know where it leads.
  - alanh 16y ago
    Your comment betrays an extreme misunderstanding of vendor prefixes and the nature of standards development compared to a proprietary system of browser plug-ins. See other comments on this page. And it wasn’t ActiveX that crippled web development, buster. It was the lack of progress and support for emerging web standards like CSS2 and PNG. By contributing to standards, the Webkit team creates the exact opposite effect of IE6. (Accidentally upvoted)
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- niceguy101 16y ago
dbrannan 16y ago
If browsers stick to standards then great, but as this demo proves (since it only works in Safari) you'll still need to develop for various browsers, versions, brands, types. As I see it - I'll stick with Flash. I like the idea of write once and deploy everywhere, which worked pretty well for me until the iTouch/iPhone/iPad came along.
alanh 16y ago
This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards. Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using <article>, <figure>, <header>. It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as a compendium of current best practices. Progressive enhancement still applies in the real world. Apple knows that. If you are criticizing this for being not cross-browser enough, you are completely missing the point.
- tmsh 16y ago
  The issue may be, however, that the standards committees for HTML5 haven't defined how different implementations of these standards are supposed to play together. And the question is: does Apple have the right to define how HTML5 should be handled cross-browser? (In this case, by very simply denying all non-Safari browsers -- at least via that link -- the developer links work -- kind of.) In all fairness, I think they do if other people haven't said anything else about it. But in even more fairness, perhaps other people (specifically the working groups) should make it more clear about whether or not you can target specific browsers. If you want to do things progressively, there should be a feature matrix, and as more and more enhancements are fully implemented in all major browsers, one shouldn't be able to specify which browser you must use. It's probably just my ignorance. But it's not clear to me where the lines are between best practices, web standards, and fairness (forcing a browser of course evokes nightmarish legal history a la Microsoft). I suppose I should look through: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ If anyone can point me in the right direction though (or maybe I'm asking the wrong questions), that'd be cool. I suppose the risk is that because HTML5 has so many different features, it would be easy to basically not standardize. If Apple is the only company that fully supports interesting parts of the standard and they keep on iterating and nobody catches up -- is that really a standard? But are we right to deny them further development and innovation? I think there's a balance, but where is that balance? We've now got a lot of cooks in the kitchen: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&publi... Hope it works. But you know what they say about committees, second-system syndrome, etc... Though honestly it's not like I see any other solution.... Though an easy to browse website that showed near real-time progress of all the major browsers' implementations of the HTML5 feature set, so we can at least see the playing field. That might be a start.... I definitely think it's in everyone's interest to cooperate. ETA. Found this for HTML5/CSS3 feature matrix: http://caniuse.com/ http://caniuse.com/
pedrokost 16y ago
I don't really understand this claim: "Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today." Standards should therefore be right there, sitting in you computer for someone to use them. Why do I have to download Safari then? I prefer to download a 2MB add-on than 30MB additional browser that I will never use.
- rimantas 16y ago
  So you are still stuffing USB keys to your floppy drive?
al_james 16y ago
Has anyone tried these on iPad or iPhone? Some of them are not smooth on my macbook, surly they must suck on a low CPU device? Or am I wrong?
- jcromartie 16y ago
  They are amazing on the iPad. Perfectly smooth and hardware-accelerated.
- niceguy101 16y ago
  Tried on my iphone and iPad. The demos work at low framerate and is kind of slow. But its just a mobile device. I am not really expecting cpu intensive html5 application to work on these light devices. Thats what my macpro is for.
  - al_james 16y ago
    Yeah, but Apple seem to be suggesting that you can use HTML5 for nice looking (near native animation) effects on these devices.
    - watty 16y ago
      Do they really? Or do they realize that it's going to be some years before HTML5 is efficient enough and just want native apps?
      - al_james 16y ago
        Why would they bother with this HTML5 showcase in that case?
jasonkester 16y ago
They really open themselves up to mockery with this. Even here, in this community of people who know what's going on with W3 standards, people are finding the site confusing. Imagine the message this site is sending to the average user by putting up these cool demos that don't work on his browser: HTML5: The standard that only works on Safari I don't think that's the message they're trying to get across, but it's the one they're sending.
seltzered 16y ago
OK, I see typography, design, transitions -- Where's the games section for my mom to play Mahjong?
- ugh 16y ago
  Here is a checkers game: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/checkers.php http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/checkers.php
not_an_alien 16y ago
Shows the hypocrisy of Apple when they're saying you shouldn't need a plugin, but then force you to download a new browser even if it's not necessary.
crad 16y ago
Given IE's misleading page about HTML5 support, by omitting the parts they do not support to make it look like they are the market leader, Apple could have had something to gain by giving a warning that says something along the lines of "Your browser doesn't fully support the HTML5 features we're demonstrating, click here to continue, click here to experience it in Safari." I want to see how the other browsers stack up in their demos and think it's short sided of them to not allow that to happen.
glhaynes 16y ago
Somewhat buggy in parts on MobileSafari, though very well formatted for iPad. We certainly expect iPhone OS 4.0 for iPhone / iPod touch, but perhaps we'll see an update to iPad's version of iPhone OS as well on Monday?
not_an_alien 16y ago
From a guy who did many of the examples for chromeexperiments.com and has been a pretty active promoter of HTML5/standards via three.js and other projects: "I'm happy I rejected doing anything for this apple/html5 page. They should rethink their policy and give credits to the authors." Source: http://twitter.com/mrdoob/statuses/15417138430 http://twitter.com/mrdoob/statuses/15417138430
leviathant 16y ago
I'm still entirely unimpressed with HTML5's audio capabilities, and this 'showcase' does nothing to improve upon that. Press this button to play a 30 second sample? Browsers were capable of that in the mid nineties. If they showed me a game with a background track and multiple layered, triggerable sounds (like just about any Flash game or iPhone game out there) I would have been a little more satisfied. The gallery was also suprisingly sluggish on my core 2 quad machine with a somewhat super duper video card.
buymorechuck 16y ago
CSS 3D transforms are an emerging W3C spec. WebKit has the hooks for supporting CSS 3D, but a WebKit port like Chrome still needs to add an underlying scene graph engine ala Core Animation to get 3D rendering going. It's non-trivial, but possible. Scene graph engines are hard to build, much like vector graphics engines and font rendering engines. That said, Clutter ToolKit (the same one Chrome OS is using for its windowing manager) is about the closest open source ready-to-go replacement that can do 80% of what is needed by WebKit to do CSS 3D on top of OpenGL. It's on Google's list to add to Chrome, but not for awhile. Google seems to be favoring WebGL over CSS 3D (too much detail to discuss pros, cons, and the politics here), and is making WebGL implementation a higher priority for now.
sjs 16y ago
I don't see what the big deal is. Disable JavaScript and you can check out all the demos. :p

178 points by taitems 16y ago

Oh Firefox my love!! Plz hurry up!! http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/showcase/typography/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/showcase/typography/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/CanvasPixelManipulation/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/CanvasPixelManipulati... http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/LightTable/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/LightTable/

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orangecat 16y ago
If you spoof Chrome's user agent (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64e4e45037f55919&hl=en http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64e4...) it lets you in. Most of the effects work, but video and VR don't.
- tumult 16y ago
  Check another post I made in this thread -- there are demos on all of the pages that are silently removed if the browser can't support them. You didn't even know you were missing the most impressive ones.
- SkyMarshal 16y ago
  Cool. The main annoyance is that if I could use Safari too, I would. I used to when I had Windows. But now that I'm on Linux, it's Chrome/FF/Opera or bust. Teasers like this are annoying.

bradgessler 16y ago

Neat idea, very poor implementation. If you try to view the examples in Google Chrome, you'll get a notice that you have to download Safari (http://skitch.com/bradgessler/dgw7p/apple-html5 http://skitch.com/bradgessler/dgw7p/apple-html5) This sets a very poor example for Apple supporting standards.

haydenchambers 16y ago
Has this changed or is it only applicable to desktop? (Works fine from nexus one)
robertmrangel 16y ago
You are either for us or against us.
billpaetzke 16y ago
* Apple might be nudging people to use Safari as their main browser. * Apple might have limited to Safari to keep things simple--to be absolutely sure their demo would work 100%. * I agree that it sucks that their demos are only viewable w/ Safari. But there are plenty of HTML5 demos out there for us :)
- bradgessler 16y ago
  Its not that it sucks, its that Apple is being misleading about HTML5.
- instcode 16y ago
  Yes! Why doesn't Apple just let every browser run it and see how superior Safari is in term of HTML5 support? The answer is: Listen up, people! Download our Safari now! Time to ditch your IE, Opera, FF & Chrome!.. Oh, get a life! How mean you always are, Apple!
jpcx01 16y ago
Extremely lame that they check the user agent. They probably all work fine in Chrome since it uses webkit also (I believe Chrome uses a newer version even).
- tumult 16y ago
  They don't.
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ube 16y ago
Since both chrome and safari use webkit to render - chrome should work too shouldn't it? Granted - Apple's definition of open is "you should only use Apple products".
- jsz0 16y ago
  Nope. Google uses a ton of WebKit code, submits a lot of code back into WebKit proper, but they're doing their own stuff too. IIRC they wanted to have GPU acceleration for 3D CSS which apparently WebKit proper doesn't offer at this point or Google thinks they can do it better. You can't safely assume all WebKit based browsers are going to be equal.
  - Zev 16y ago
    WebKit proper doesn't offer at this point I've got a radar open with Apple about Safari's performance (that I know WebKit people have at the very least seen) that essentially boils down to this reason.
    - ryanpetrich 16y ago
      Safari's WebKit has basic hardware acceleration through CoreAnimation (but it only appears to apply to the 3D transform properties)
- deleted 16y ago
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tumult 16y ago
They don't work in Chrome, or the Chromium nightly snapshots. 3D CSS transforms are needed for many of the demos.

silvestrov 16y ago

It seems like all the samples are targeted at the creative ad bureaus, and the goal is to educate them that HTML5 has all the features they need for their creative sites. First the book publishers, now the ad agencies. The creative sector has really been in SteveJ's focus for the past half year.

shadowsun7 16y ago

+1 for Apple educating people on the awesomeness of HTML5. -1 for being Safari-only. Then again, when you think about it - the Safari-only filter implicitly tells people that Safari is the 'only' browser (or the best browser) currently supporting HTML5; that other browsers have to play catchup.

thought_alarm 16y ago
They explicitly say this on the front page: "Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do"
- papachito 16y ago
  The problem is that they block Chrome 5 too, which is more advanced than Safari 4 (newer version of webkit).
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    Except that it isn't. You can run the demo in Chrome if you want. Someone in this thread did...
    - niceguy101 16y ago
      I tried, but didnt work in Chrome. Not that i want it to. Safari is the only browser on my mac and works almost fine.
      - loewenskind 16y ago
        Did you read the thread? At least 3 people (at the time of this reading) have done it. You have to change the user agent setting.
        loewenskind 16y ago

SkyMarshal 16y ago

http://imgur.com/TvSup.png http://imgur.com/TvSup.png sigh... C'mon Apple, we all know Chrome and Chromium can display your HTML5 too. Probably Opera as well.

shadowsun7 16y ago

Source code and developer documentation for the demos found here: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/

tmsh 16y ago
Yeah, most work in Chrome (on Linux). Edit: that said, imho, the original link is somewhat misguided. It brings up an interesting question: is Apple responsible for targeting all platforms, or at least all major platforms that conform to a standard? Even if those standards aren't fully implemented among different browsers? And wtf, Apple, I wanna play checkers... Some of the demos run really well on Linux though. But I mean -- are they responsible for all platforms? Or maybe they're just responsible for not misleading people into thinking that they must choose their platform? (The issues in Microsoft's antitrust history rise again.) Anyway, for my money I don't think the future of the web is via the traditional browser -- but I'm sort of in left field in this regard. But yeah, there are maybe deeper issues that haven't really been resolved...
ciupicri 16y ago
Btw since when does Apple use PHP[1] instead of WebObjects? [1] http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/typography.php http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/typography.php
- sjs 16y ago
  Probably for small jobs where WebObjects would be overkill. And they don't use PHP instead of WebObjects they use both PHP and WebOjects, right tool for the job and all that. They also use SproutCore, jQuery (or have used it), Gianduia, and for the WWDC schedule it seems that they use something else, possibly custom.

alanstorm 16y ago

Does anyone know what word we're supposed to use for "Web Development techniques that help ensure a consistency of experience across browsers for all users regardless of browser choice" now that "standards" means something else?

drusenko 16y ago
these are experimental standards. they're being actively developed and discussed by many browser makers and the standards bodies, and will be the official standards soon. don't hate on people trying to push the web forward. everybody is going it in a very fair, open, democratic method as trying to implement ideas as quickly as possible.

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willhankinson 16y ago

Where are the games?

c1sc0 16y ago
This move is not about games but about iads. (funny side note: iPad insists on spelling that as aids, ouch) apple is pushing htm5 because it will be an essential component of apple's next money-making machine: advertising. And html5 is a great match for advertising: html5 may not be ready for hardcore gaming, but chucking a few banner ads at the peplum, no problem!

tuxychandru 16y ago

Picking a demo from http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ and then clicking on the "View Demo" button allows you to view the demos. Most of them (except VR) seem to work for me in Chrome on Ubuntu (5.0.375.55 beta).

StupidDorks 16y ago

Tried opening an example in chrome and got a download safari message!! Who works in Apple Dickheads?

StupidDorks 16y ago

Fuck this community is full of Apple Fanboys! This is the biggest pile of shit apple has handed out about HTML 5. Download safari? Who works at apple dickheads. Sad to see so many dumb US people using APPlE products

ck2 16y ago

The propaganda and hypocriticism from Apple is staggering. (if you are going to downvote me, at least say why not)

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ugh 16y ago
I think the accusing party has to explain why something is hypocritical and propaganda.
- ck2 16y ago
  Ah okay. Well for starters, claiming they are using open standards and then trying to block based on user-agent for only Safari.
  - ugh 16y ago
    Fair enough. They should have done feature detection, not user agent sniffing. I just don’t think that’s that big of a deal.

niswilsonnissen 16y ago

Since a lot the html5 modules (and related standards) are still being worked on, we can't expect every tech demo of the new features to work in every browser. Apple wanted to show some very shiny html5 demos and that is fine. There is a good chance that everything shown there will be working across all the major browsers in a not too distant future. (Yes they have have to loose the vendor prefix -webkit first, but that is actually the recommended way to use non-finalized preview features of the emerging standards). I see this as Apple pushing the html5 wagon forward, the same as the other major browser vendors do. Have you tried Internet Explorer 9 Preview demos in other browsers? Finally the html standard is moving forward again after years of standstill. How anybody can complain about that is beyond me. Cheers!

dieterrams 16y ago

Wow. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Google released this with Chrome-only demos. Lots of praise about how Google's leading the way, pushing browsers forward, and you really ought to give Chrome a try. But when Apple does it? A barrage of complaints about how Apple doesn't support standards. It's laughable how transparently people are looking for something, anything to bitch about when it comes to Apple, no matter what they do.

netcan 16y ago
C'est la vie Once you're suspect, you're suspect. If you've got the benefit of the doubt, you've got the benefit of the doubt. Overall, that's probably more good then bad. We'd like to think we can be objective, but we probably can't. These crutches are there for a reason.
buster 16y ago
So, when MS crippled web development for years with it's browser strategy and proprietary crap it was widely considered very harmful for the web. Now, when Apple does it, it's "pushing the web forward"? We would all use ActiveX controls and be stuck with IE6 if everyone would think like you. And i would argue every company would get the same "hate". Even worse, we've all had this in the past, now we should do everything to keep things a standard and open, because we know where it leads.
- alanh 16y ago
  Your comment betrays an extreme misunderstanding of vendor prefixes and the nature of standards development compared to a proprietary system of browser plug-ins. See other comments on this page. And it wasn’t ActiveX that crippled web development, buster. It was the lack of progress and support for emerging web standards like CSS2 and PNG. By contributing to standards, the Webkit team creates the exact opposite effect of IE6. (Accidentally upvoted)
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
niceguy101 16y ago

dbrannan 16y ago

If browsers stick to standards then great, but as this demo proves (since it only works in Safari) you'll still need to develop for various browsers, versions, brands, types. As I see it - I'll stick with Flash. I like the idea of write once and deploy everywhere, which worked pretty well for me until the iTouch/iPhone/iPad came along.

alanh 16y ago

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards. Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using <article>, <figure>, <header>. It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as a compendium of current best practices. Progressive enhancement still applies in the real world. Apple knows that. If you are criticizing this for being not cross-browser enough, you are completely missing the point.

tmsh 16y ago
The issue may be, however, that the standards committees for HTML5 haven't defined how different implementations of these standards are supposed to play together. And the question is: does Apple have the right to define how HTML5 should be handled cross-browser? (In this case, by very simply denying all non-Safari browsers -- at least via that link -- the developer links work -- kind of.) In all fairness, I think they do if other people haven't said anything else about it. But in even more fairness, perhaps other people (specifically the working groups) should make it more clear about whether or not you can target specific browsers. If you want to do things progressively, there should be a feature matrix, and as more and more enhancements are fully implemented in all major browsers, one shouldn't be able to specify which browser you must use. It's probably just my ignorance. But it's not clear to me where the lines are between best practices, web standards, and fairness (forcing a browser of course evokes nightmarish legal history a la Microsoft). I suppose I should look through: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ If anyone can point me in the right direction though (or maybe I'm asking the wrong questions), that'd be cool. I suppose the risk is that because HTML5 has so many different features, it would be easy to basically not standardize. If Apple is the only company that fully supports interesting parts of the standard and they keep on iterating and nobody catches up -- is that really a standard? But are we right to deny them further development and innovation? I think there's a balance, but where is that balance? We've now got a lot of cooks in the kitchen: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1 http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&publi... Hope it works. But you know what they say about committees, second-system syndrome, etc... Though honestly it's not like I see any other solution.... Though an easy to browse website that showed near real-time progress of all the major browsers' implementations of the HTML5 feature set, so we can at least see the playing field. That might be a start.... I definitely think it's in everyone's interest to cooperate. ETA. Found this for HTML5/CSS3 feature matrix: http://caniuse.com/ http://caniuse.com/

pedrokost 16y ago

I don't really understand this claim: "Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today." Standards should therefore be right there, sitting in you computer for someone to use them. Why do I have to download Safari then? I prefer to download a 2MB add-on than 30MB additional browser that I will never use.

rimantas 16y ago
So you are still stuffing USB keys to your floppy drive?

al_james 16y ago

Has anyone tried these on iPad or iPhone? Some of them are not smooth on my macbook, surly they must suck on a low CPU device? Or am I wrong?

jcromartie 16y ago
They are amazing on the iPad. Perfectly smooth and hardware-accelerated.
niceguy101 16y ago
Tried on my iphone and iPad. The demos work at low framerate and is kind of slow. But its just a mobile device. I am not really expecting cpu intensive html5 application to work on these light devices. Thats what my macpro is for.
- al_james 16y ago
  Yeah, but Apple seem to be suggesting that you can use HTML5 for nice looking (near native animation) effects on these devices.
  - watty 16y ago
    Do they really? Or do they realize that it's going to be some years before HTML5 is efficient enough and just want native apps?
    - al_james 16y ago
      Why would they bother with this HTML5 showcase in that case?

jasonkester 16y ago

They really open themselves up to mockery with this. Even here, in this community of people who know what's going on with W3 standards, people are finding the site confusing. Imagine the message this site is sending to the average user by putting up these cool demos that don't work on his browser: HTML5: The standard that only works on Safari I don't think that's the message they're trying to get across, but it's the one they're sending.

seltzered 16y ago

OK, I see typography, design, transitions -- Where's the games section for my mom to play Mahjong?

ugh 16y ago
Here is a checkers game: http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/checkers.php http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/checkers.php

not_an_alien 16y ago

Shows the hypocrisy of Apple when they're saying you shouldn't need a plugin, but then force you to download a new browser even if it's not necessary.

crad 16y ago

Given IE's misleading page about HTML5 support, by omitting the parts they do not support to make it look like they are the market leader, Apple could have had something to gain by giving a warning that says something along the lines of "Your browser doesn't fully support the HTML5 features we're demonstrating, click here to continue, click here to experience it in Safari." I want to see how the other browsers stack up in their demos and think it's short sided of them to not allow that to happen.

glhaynes 16y ago

Somewhat buggy in parts on MobileSafari, though very well formatted for iPad. We certainly expect iPhone OS 4.0 for iPhone / iPod touch, but perhaps we'll see an update to iPad's version of iPhone OS as well on Monday?

not_an_alien 16y ago

From a guy who did many of the examples for chromeexperiments.com and has been a pretty active promoter of HTML5/standards via three.js and other projects: "I'm happy I rejected doing anything for this apple/html5 page. They should rethink their policy and give credits to the authors." Source: http://twitter.com/mrdoob/statuses/15417138430 http://twitter.com/mrdoob/statuses/15417138430

leviathant 16y ago

I'm still entirely unimpressed with HTML5's audio capabilities, and this 'showcase' does nothing to improve upon that. Press this button to play a 30 second sample? Browsers were capable of that in the mid nineties. If they showed me a game with a background track and multiple layered, triggerable sounds (like just about any Flash game or iPhone game out there) I would have been a little more satisfied. The gallery was also suprisingly sluggish on my core 2 quad machine with a somewhat super duper video card.

buymorechuck 16y ago

CSS 3D transforms are an emerging W3C spec. WebKit has the hooks for supporting CSS 3D, but a WebKit port like Chrome still needs to add an underlying scene graph engine ala Core Animation to get 3D rendering going. It's non-trivial, but possible. Scene graph engines are hard to build, much like vector graphics engines and font rendering engines. That said, Clutter ToolKit (the same one Chrome OS is using for its windowing manager) is about the closest open source ready-to-go replacement that can do 80% of what is needed by WebKit to do CSS 3D on top of OpenGL. It's on Google's list to add to Chrome, but not for awhile. Google seems to be favoring WebGL over CSS 3D (too much detail to discuss pros, cons, and the politics here), and is making WebGL implementation a higher priority for now.

sjs 16y ago

I don't see what the big deal is. Disable JavaScript and you can check out all the demos. :p