7 ms·

> This Technology Preview features automatic reference counting with a cycle collector on top, but what the final memory management solution(s) will look like i

> This Technology Preview features automatic reference counting with a cycle collector on top, but what the final memory management solution(s) will look like is unknown at this point. Same issue with Scala Native[1]. Both projects are a long way from being production ready wrt to targeting ios, android and desktop. Probably at least a couple of years before either project delivers the one-language-to-rule-them-all. [1] https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native

geodel 10y ago
May they all do great. But I am sceptical that Scala/Kotlin and many others started in last decade stand chance against Java/Rust/Swift/Go. IMO these 4 are backed by powerful corporations and have large community momentum. They are going to keep >90% of all software work along with C/C++.
- vetinari 10y ago
  Some of these corporations are experts in shooting in the foot. I wanted to read 'The Swift Programming Language (Swift 3.1 Edition)'. It is just an epub, just distributed via Apple iBooks, right? When trying to open in on an Android tablet, I found out that it is DRM-ed. Why on earth would you put DRM on a publication you want to circulate as widely as possible? Why would anyone have to read reference docs for multi platform language on a single platform? That certainly dampened my enthusiasm for Swift.
  - geodel 10y ago
    I would think it is an oversight. From their website: > This ePub document is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0) License. They should make PDF/html available to all.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Hopefully, it might be oversight. The (non-DRM) epub is fine too, it is just a bunch of of html files, zipped.
  - drew-y 10y ago
    The download link from swift.org doesn't seem to be DRM'd. I can open it just fine in my ePub reader. Maybe its an iBooks thing? https://swift.org/documentation/TheSwiftProgrammingLanguage(Swift3.1).epub https://swift.org/documentation/TheSwiftProgrammingLanguage(...
    - vetinari 10y ago
      Maybe iBook thing. The 3.0 edition wasn't DRM-ed, though.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    No, it is distributed on the open source site since it exists. https://swift.org/documentation/ https://swift.org/documentation/ I never had any issue reading it on Aldiko, even the Apple versions.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      I have it from iBooks, because in the past, it wasn't on the site yet. Since then, I just update it via iBooks. The previous editions didn't have DRM either.
  - dzonga 10y ago
    Just the same as the book: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Swift/Conceptual/Swift_Programming_Language/Extensions.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40014097-CH24-ID151 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Sw...
- wmfiv 10y ago
  I'm not sure. How much does Mozilla actually invest in Rust? Same with Google and Go. I would guess over the past 15 years that Sun/Oracle (Java) and Microsoft (C#/.NET) each annually spend more on language / platform development than everyone else put together does over 5 or 10 years.
  - geodel 10y ago
    Yes, I missed C#. C#/Java were largely developed in-house. So they would need huge teams and infrastructure. Rust/Go have huge community momentum so not all development is done by people paid by Google or Mozilla.
    - WorldMaker 10y ago
      C# has a growing community momentum now, too. Very interesting to watch.
      - zgramana 10y ago
        FWIW, C# also has compiled into native executables/libs for many years via `mkbundle`[1] and into JS via several projects like Bridge.NET [2]. [1] https://linux.die.net/man/1/mkbundle https://linux.die.net/man/1/mkbundle [2] https://github.com/bridgedotnet/Bridge https://github.com/bridgedotnet/Bridge
- jorgemf 10y ago
  kotlin is backed by a tooling company. This is a very strong argument. The ones that are doing the best IDE for java (for a lot of people) are the ones that decided to create kotlin. Swift also has the tooling support of Apple, but I only read complains about tooling around Swift. Go and Rust are very niche compare to java or swift, while kotlin can replace java completely and now it is aiming for native backend projects.
  - Entangled 10y ago
    This is a great point and I wonder if JetBrains released a free IDE for individual programmers it would help adopt their technologies wherever these programmers work. Yesterday I took a look at their tools and they are all absolutely great but I didn't download a single one since they are all 30-day trial and I am as poor as fuck. So tease me, convert me, let me use your tools for years and when the time comes I am ready for an enterprise I'd take my knowledge with me, and my tools. JetBrains are you listening?
    - danneu 10y ago
      Check out their open source license. https://www.jetbrains.com/buy/opensource/ https://www.jetbrains.com/buy/opensource/
    - drampelt 10y ago
      Intellij IDEA has a free community edition, but yeah, nothing free for commericial development. https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/ https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/
      - adl 10y ago
        Depends on how you define commercial development. You can certainly do commercial applications using Intellij IDEA CE, if you don't need Java EE, Spring, GWT, Grails, etc deep integration in the IDE.
      - true_religion 10y ago
        It is important to note that they don't prohibit commercial development on the community edition. They just do not promote the community edition for commercial development. I, for instance, could choose to use PyCharm community since I rarely use any of the tooling that comes with the 'pro edition', but when I do need something---like Cython debugging---its damned useful.
- chickenbane 10y ago
  > I am sceptical that Scala/Kotlin and many others started in last decade stand chance against Java/Rust/Swift/Go In contrast to Scala, Kotlin has a much stronger focus on Java interop so its able to much better leverage the JVM ecosystem. In particular, Kotlin hits a really good sweet spot for Android development, where it can still be compatible with older JVM versions, the language features can really increase readability and reduce bugs, and the overhead isn't too dramatic. The network effects also amplify its usefulness; JetBrains continues improving the language and its tooling; Android Studio is based on IntelliJ so the integration is also strong; more developers use the language and produce more libraries, frameworks, and ensure compatibility is excellent. By design you can begin using Kotlin in a Java project slowly (there's even a Java->Kotlin converter), so if you are developing on a Java stack, Kotlin is worth investigating!
taude 10y ago
I'm curious about it without even the mobile story. But just compiling command-line apps for easy distribution, similar to GoLang.
- geodel 10y ago
  They might reach there quickly. But having a state of the art GC like Java or low memory profile like Rust/Go and high performance might take a long time.

geodel 10y ago

May they all do great. But I am sceptical that Scala/Kotlin and many others started in last decade stand chance against Java/Rust/Swift/Go. IMO these 4 are backed by powerful corporations and have large community momentum. They are going to keep >90% of all software work along with C/C++.

vetinari 10y ago
Some of these corporations are experts in shooting in the foot. I wanted to read 'The Swift Programming Language (Swift 3.1 Edition)'. It is just an epub, just distributed via Apple iBooks, right? When trying to open in on an Android tablet, I found out that it is DRM-ed. Why on earth would you put DRM on a publication you want to circulate as widely as possible? Why would anyone have to read reference docs for multi platform language on a single platform? That certainly dampened my enthusiasm for Swift.
- geodel 10y ago
  I would think it is an oversight. From their website: > This ePub document is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0) License. They should make PDF/html available to all.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    Hopefully, it might be oversight. The (non-DRM) epub is fine too, it is just a bunch of of html files, zipped.
- drew-y 10y ago
  The download link from swift.org doesn't seem to be DRM'd. I can open it just fine in my ePub reader. Maybe its an iBooks thing? https://swift.org/documentation/TheSwiftProgrammingLanguage(Swift3.1).epub https://swift.org/documentation/TheSwiftProgrammingLanguage(...
  - vetinari 10y ago
    Maybe iBook thing. The 3.0 edition wasn't DRM-ed, though.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  No, it is distributed on the open source site since it exists. https://swift.org/documentation/ https://swift.org/documentation/ I never had any issue reading it on Aldiko, even the Apple versions.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    I have it from iBooks, because in the past, it wasn't on the site yet. Since then, I just update it via iBooks. The previous editions didn't have DRM either.
- dzonga 10y ago
  Just the same as the book: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Swift/Conceptual/Swift_Programming_Language/Extensions.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40014097-CH24-ID151 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Sw...
wmfiv 10y ago
I'm not sure. How much does Mozilla actually invest in Rust? Same with Google and Go. I would guess over the past 15 years that Sun/Oracle (Java) and Microsoft (C#/.NET) each annually spend more on language / platform development than everyone else put together does over 5 or 10 years.
- geodel 10y ago
  Yes, I missed C#. C#/Java were largely developed in-house. So they would need huge teams and infrastructure. Rust/Go have huge community momentum so not all development is done by people paid by Google or Mozilla.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    C# has a growing community momentum now, too. Very interesting to watch.
    - zgramana 10y ago
      FWIW, C# also has compiled into native executables/libs for many years via `mkbundle`[1] and into JS via several projects like Bridge.NET [2]. [1] https://linux.die.net/man/1/mkbundle https://linux.die.net/man/1/mkbundle [2] https://github.com/bridgedotnet/Bridge https://github.com/bridgedotnet/Bridge
jorgemf 10y ago
kotlin is backed by a tooling company. This is a very strong argument. The ones that are doing the best IDE for java (for a lot of people) are the ones that decided to create kotlin. Swift also has the tooling support of Apple, but I only read complains about tooling around Swift. Go and Rust are very niche compare to java or swift, while kotlin can replace java completely and now it is aiming for native backend projects.
- Entangled 10y ago
  This is a great point and I wonder if JetBrains released a free IDE for individual programmers it would help adopt their technologies wherever these programmers work. Yesterday I took a look at their tools and they are all absolutely great but I didn't download a single one since they are all 30-day trial and I am as poor as fuck. So tease me, convert me, let me use your tools for years and when the time comes I am ready for an enterprise I'd take my knowledge with me, and my tools. JetBrains are you listening?
  - danneu 10y ago
    Check out their open source license. https://www.jetbrains.com/buy/opensource/ https://www.jetbrains.com/buy/opensource/
  - drampelt 10y ago
    Intellij IDEA has a free community edition, but yeah, nothing free for commericial development. https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/ https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/
    - adl 10y ago
      Depends on how you define commercial development. You can certainly do commercial applications using Intellij IDEA CE, if you don't need Java EE, Spring, GWT, Grails, etc deep integration in the IDE.
    - true_religion 10y ago
      It is important to note that they don't prohibit commercial development on the community edition. They just do not promote the community edition for commercial development. I, for instance, could choose to use PyCharm community since I rarely use any of the tooling that comes with the 'pro edition', but when I do need something---like Cython debugging---its damned useful.
chickenbane 10y ago
> I am sceptical that Scala/Kotlin and many others started in last decade stand chance against Java/Rust/Swift/Go In contrast to Scala, Kotlin has a much stronger focus on Java interop so its able to much better leverage the JVM ecosystem. In particular, Kotlin hits a really good sweet spot for Android development, where it can still be compatible with older JVM versions, the language features can really increase readability and reduce bugs, and the overhead isn't too dramatic. The network effects also amplify its usefulness; JetBrains continues improving the language and its tooling; Android Studio is based on IntelliJ so the integration is also strong; more developers use the language and produce more libraries, frameworks, and ensure compatibility is excellent. By design you can begin using Kotlin in a Java project slowly (there's even a Java->Kotlin converter), so if you are developing on a Java stack, Kotlin is worth investigating!

taude 10y ago

I'm curious about it without even the mobile story. But just compiling command-line apps for easy distribution, similar to GoLang.

geodel 10y ago
They might reach there quickly. But having a state of the art GC like Java or low memory profile like Rust/Go and high performance might take a long time.