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Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for

by Swizec 10y ago

Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for "smart dirty immigrant" jobs is much higher than the ceiling for "remote dude" jobs as well. Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Unless of course you're okay stagnating in your career. Then staying home is financially more sound and you can lead a cushy life then retire at 35 or 40. But meh, life's too short to limit yourself out of cushiness. *save and/or use as disposable income PS: one thing I've noticed is that those of my friends who couldn't get visas are the loudest opponents of moving to the US and those of us who could are the loudest proponents. It's probably all bias and it doesn't really matter where you are if you're a good engineer. Work will find you.

paganel 10y ago
I'm in the opposite boat as you. I am by no means a "fantastic" programmer, but I did indeed receive a job offer for working in NYC a couple of years ago (I now live in an Eastern European capital of about 2 million people). I concluded that living in a shared appt while I'm in my 30s it's not for me anymore, at least if I can avoid it, and there was almost no way for me to live on my own in NYC unless I had commuted from very far away. I also couldn't fathom putting an entire ocean between myself and all the people and things I love. I see myself living in Berlin, let's say, but living half a world away was just too much for me. I was also well aware of the money I decided to leave on the table when I refused the offer.
- Swizec 10y ago
  I agree. Having a girlfriend from here and sharing an apartment with her (she also makes 6 figures) rather than strangers makes things a lot easier. She's an EU/US dual citizen so she could move to Europe with me, but opportunities for soft skills people are hella scarce on that side of the pond. It's hard enough over here. And 2 million capital vs 300k capital is big difference in "amount of things available" ;) I'd prob wanna move to Paris or Berlin or NYC eventually. All cheaper than SF.
- elastic_church 10y ago
  Hm thats weird, I was a junior engineer and living in Manhattan. And aside from simply being able to afford it with less than 30% of your monthly income, there are more than enough ways to get lucky on rent in NYC.
dredmorbius 10y ago
Oponents / proponents sounds a lot like sour grapes / rationalisation.
- Swizec 10y ago
  Exactly. I think there's a lot of that.
taway_1212 10y ago
> Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Can you give an example? I've lived in London before and I don't think I saw a single thing available there (that I was interested in) that wasn't available in much smaller cities. I mean, why do you need thousands of restaurants and nightclubs, when in a small city you still have dozens of them, and you don't need to suffer in the tube?
- Anderkent 10y ago
  Variety? Also, theatres, cinemas, shops... Most of all, the fact that no matter what sport/hobby/game/activity you're into, you can always find people to do it with.
- sidlls 10y ago
  Restaurants and nightclubs aren't the only things people want. There is the arts and exposure to other cultures and languages, educational opportunities, recreation for kids (e.g. parks), and a number of other things that aren't actually available, generally, in these lower cost of living smaller places.
- Swizec 10y ago
  "Ok, which of the 3 decent restaurants am i going to today?" Gets really boring after a while. New ones to try open every few years instead of every few weeks. You look at Yelp or similar and you've been to everything it suggests and decided it's meh. Or your friends have been and aay it's kinda meh. There's also that argument that Oatmeal mentioned once. In a small city you have Asian restaurants. Maybe Chinese, Japanese, and Asian. In a big city you have Cantonese, Sushi, Japanese Grill, Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Singaporean, South Thai, North Thai, Dim Sum etc etc Maybe SF is a special case. The city itself is only 800k people, but it's surrounded by 6mio people which makes it feel a lot bigger than it is while retaining a lot of the smaller city feel. It's basically Bay Area's lower to mid Manhattan. PS: London is massive. 13mio people in the metro area. That's twice the size of the entire Bay Area so yes, law of diminishing returns definitely kicks in at some point.
  - 10y ago

by Swizec 10y ago

paganel 10y ago

I'm in the opposite boat as you. I am by no means a "fantastic" programmer, but I did indeed receive a job offer for working in NYC a couple of years ago (I now live in an Eastern European capital of about 2 million people). I concluded that living in a shared appt while I'm in my 30s it's not for me anymore, at least if I can avoid it, and there was almost no way for me to live on my own in NYC unless I had commuted from very far away. I also couldn't fathom putting an entire ocean between myself and all the people and things I love. I see myself living in Berlin, let's say, but living half a world away was just too much for me. I was also well aware of the money I decided to leave on the table when I refused the offer.

Swizec 10y ago
I agree. Having a girlfriend from here and sharing an apartment with her (she also makes 6 figures) rather than strangers makes things a lot easier. She's an EU/US dual citizen so she could move to Europe with me, but opportunities for soft skills people are hella scarce on that side of the pond. It's hard enough over here. And 2 million capital vs 300k capital is big difference in "amount of things available" ;) I'd prob wanna move to Paris or Berlin or NYC eventually. All cheaper than SF.
elastic_church 10y ago
Hm thats weird, I was a junior engineer and living in Manhattan. And aside from simply being able to afford it with less than 30% of your monthly income, there are more than enough ways to get lucky on rent in NYC.

dredmorbius 10y ago

Oponents / proponents sounds a lot like sour grapes / rationalisation.

Swizec 10y ago
Exactly. I think there's a lot of that.

taway_1212 10y ago

> Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Can you give an example? I've lived in London before and I don't think I saw a single thing available there (that I was interested in) that wasn't available in much smaller cities. I mean, why do you need thousands of restaurants and nightclubs, when in a small city you still have dozens of them, and you don't need to suffer in the tube?

Anderkent 10y ago
Variety? Also, theatres, cinemas, shops... Most of all, the fact that no matter what sport/hobby/game/activity you're into, you can always find people to do it with.
sidlls 10y ago
Restaurants and nightclubs aren't the only things people want. There is the arts and exposure to other cultures and languages, educational opportunities, recreation for kids (e.g. parks), and a number of other things that aren't actually available, generally, in these lower cost of living smaller places.
Swizec 10y ago
"Ok, which of the 3 decent restaurants am i going to today?" Gets really boring after a while. New ones to try open every few years instead of every few weeks. You look at Yelp or similar and you've been to everything it suggests and decided it's meh. Or your friends have been and aay it's kinda meh. There's also that argument that Oatmeal mentioned once. In a small city you have Asian restaurants. Maybe Chinese, Japanese, and Asian. In a big city you have Cantonese, Sushi, Japanese Grill, Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Singaporean, South Thai, North Thai, Dim Sum etc etc Maybe SF is a special case. The city itself is only 800k people, but it's surrounded by 6mio people which makes it feel a lot bigger than it is while retaining a lot of the smaller city feel. It's basically Bay Area's lower to mid Manhattan. PS: London is massive. 13mio people in the metro area. That's twice the size of the entire Bay Area so yes, law of diminishing returns definitely kicks in at some point.
- 10y ago