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I don't know what a "lower middle class neighborhood" is like but when I worked at McD's quite a few of my coworkers expressed "I don't trust banks" sentiment.

cookiecaper 10y ago
Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about. I know that people get their kicks by pretending like Americans have a nightly ritual of peeling the toenails off the nearest poor person and grinding them up for use as seasoning, but we're stretching the limits of believability here. Check writing became popular in the late 80s and early 90s. Checking accounts were widely available by the mid 90s. I personally know several welfare recipients who wrote checks in this era. In present day, checking accounts are practically free (but not literally free, so it's not good enough for some people). Some institutions even pay interest on them. I've never had my credit pulled when trying to open one. Banking is a fairly competitive business here, even though there are strict federal and local regulations, but it's getting worse since the dominance of electronic payments is making bank/credit products an increasingly indispensable convenience. And let me add that it's not just McDonald's employees who are distrustful of banks. Bitcoin was invented to help address classes of problems arising from strong centralized control of the money supply, including the government but also the [potential] chokehold from large banks. One of bitcoin's price spikes was caused by the Greek government's 2015 stoppage on withdrawals, which left millions of Greeks without the ability to access their money for weeks. [0] While it probably makes a lot of yuppies feel better to believe otherwise, getting mired in every financial instrument that the bank promises is good for you, trusting that the government will never issue an errant levy (as a result of identity theft, for example), opening yourself to the imposition of arbitrary fees, etc., does not automatically make you an intelligent person. [0] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/greece-capital-controls_n_7743624.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/greece-capital-cont...
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  I totally get it. "I don't trust banks" is a setiment that actually makes sense when you only have $200 total to your name. Not to mention you are at constant risk of overdraft.... If you are at need of quick liquid capital I totally understand why you'd want to be cash only than risk stupid ATM fees, overdraft fees, whatever. It makes sense. Nobody has ever said to me, ever, "I would really like a bank account, but I don't have access to one." It's always "I want to keep my money, I don't trust banks to keep it for me." It's also complicates things, more than strictly necessary,that it. Participating in the banking industry becomes a higher stakes venture than keeping your cash under a mattress. It's a hard thing to get your average HN reader to understand unless you've 'been there, done that...'
- prostoalex 10y ago
  "I don't trust banks" can be an euphemism for a number of things beyond the actual dislike of the US banking system (which, as you correctly pointed out, is irrational). Prevalence of cash-based compensation, under-reporting income for various tax and benefits purposes, outstanding child support, unpaid debts, fines, outstanding collections (or disputes with collection agencies) - a variety of reasons that all lead to a feeling of control with cash in hand vs. feeling of loss of that control when an electronic number is suddenly eaten up by various ACH pulls and garnishments.
InclinedPlane 10y ago
Many people "don't trust banks" not because they think there are elaborate conspiracies going on behind the scenes but merely because they think that the minute they slip up the banks are going to take advantage of them as much as they can. And they are almost exactly correct in that matter. NSF fees are basically the equivalent of high-interest short-term loans. In some ways they are worse because the interest is assessed instantly and reducing your cash flow. Let's say you screw up and end up $5 off on your budgeting. OK, no big deal, maybe you take $5 out of your cash emergency savings (which might be, oh, $10 or $20) or you borrow $5 from a friend or family member until payday and you make things work. But if you have a bank account and you're off by $5 then you get hit with an NSF fee instantly. Now your bank account isn't just $5 in the hole, it's maybe $35 negative. So now you can't use it for anything until you come up with that extra $35, which is going to be more stressful to deal with. And then once you get things squared away after payday you're out that $30 for no perceptible real value. And that's assuming you don't get a cascade effect happening, which can easily happen if you're in a temporary money crunch. If you're living close to the margins you can't afford to risk that sort of expenditure for no return happening every once in a while. Some people simply can't afford to live that way, it's easier to live on a cash basis. You cash your paychecks at the bank they were issues or you go to a walmart and you pay a bit of overhead. You pay your bills in cash or via money order or cashier's check. It'll cost a bit to live that way, a lot more than $30 a year generally, but it's predictable and it's under your control.

cookiecaper 10y ago

Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about. I know that people get their kicks by pretending like Americans have a nightly ritual of peeling the toenails off the nearest poor person and grinding them up for use as seasoning, but we're stretching the limits of believability here. Check writing became popular in the late 80s and early 90s. Checking accounts were widely available by the mid 90s. I personally know several welfare recipients who wrote checks in this era. In present day, checking accounts are practically free (but not literally free, so it's not good enough for some people). Some institutions even pay interest on them. I've never had my credit pulled when trying to open one. Banking is a fairly competitive business here, even though there are strict federal and local regulations, but it's getting worse since the dominance of electronic payments is making bank/credit products an increasingly indispensable convenience. And let me add that it's not just McDonald's employees who are distrustful of banks. Bitcoin was invented to help address classes of problems arising from strong centralized control of the money supply, including the government but also the [potential] chokehold from large banks. One of bitcoin's price spikes was caused by the Greek government's 2015 stoppage on withdrawals, which left millions of Greeks without the ability to access their money for weeks. [0] While it probably makes a lot of yuppies feel better to believe otherwise, getting mired in every financial instrument that the bank promises is good for you, trusting that the government will never issue an errant levy (as a result of identity theft, for example), opening yourself to the imposition of arbitrary fees, etc., does not automatically make you an intelligent person. [0] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/greece-capital-controls_n_7743624.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/greece-capital-cont...

nommm-nommm 10y ago
I totally get it. "I don't trust banks" is a setiment that actually makes sense when you only have $200 total to your name. Not to mention you are at constant risk of overdraft.... If you are at need of quick liquid capital I totally understand why you'd want to be cash only than risk stupid ATM fees, overdraft fees, whatever. It makes sense. Nobody has ever said to me, ever, "I would really like a bank account, but I don't have access to one." It's always "I want to keep my money, I don't trust banks to keep it for me." It's also complicates things, more than strictly necessary,that it. Participating in the banking industry becomes a higher stakes venture than keeping your cash under a mattress. It's a hard thing to get your average HN reader to understand unless you've 'been there, done that...'
prostoalex 10y ago
"I don't trust banks" can be an euphemism for a number of things beyond the actual dislike of the US banking system (which, as you correctly pointed out, is irrational). Prevalence of cash-based compensation, under-reporting income for various tax and benefits purposes, outstanding child support, unpaid debts, fines, outstanding collections (or disputes with collection agencies) - a variety of reasons that all lead to a feeling of control with cash in hand vs. feeling of loss of that control when an electronic number is suddenly eaten up by various ACH pulls and garnishments.

InclinedPlane 10y ago

Many people "don't trust banks" not because they think there are elaborate conspiracies going on behind the scenes but merely because they think that the minute they slip up the banks are going to take advantage of them as much as they can. And they are almost exactly correct in that matter. NSF fees are basically the equivalent of high-interest short-term loans. In some ways they are worse because the interest is assessed instantly and reducing your cash flow. Let's say you screw up and end up $5 off on your budgeting. OK, no big deal, maybe you take $5 out of your cash emergency savings (which might be, oh, $10 or $20) or you borrow $5 from a friend or family member until payday and you make things work. But if you have a bank account and you're off by $5 then you get hit with an NSF fee instantly. Now your bank account isn't just $5 in the hole, it's maybe $35 negative. So now you can't use it for anything until you come up with that extra $35, which is going to be more stressful to deal with. And then once you get things squared away after payday you're out that $30 for no perceptible real value. And that's assuming you don't get a cascade effect happening, which can easily happen if you're in a temporary money crunch. If you're living close to the margins you can't afford to risk that sort of expenditure for no return happening every once in a while. Some people simply can't afford to live that way, it's easier to live on a cash basis. You cash your paychecks at the bank they were issues or you go to a walmart and you pay a bit of overhead. You pay your bills in cash or via money order or cashier's check. It'll cost a bit to live that way, a lot more than $30 a year generally, but it's predictable and it's under your control.