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I actually wrote a blog post about my experimentation with ORM (here: https://joeclark.svbtle.com/understanding-the-m-in-mvc https://joeclark.svbtle.com/underst

I actually wrote a blog post about my experimentation with ORM (here: https://joeclark.svbtle.com/understanding-the-m-in-mvc https://joeclark.svbtle.com/understanding-the-m-in-mvc). From the viewpoint of a database geek, somebody who cares about his database, those gadgets you linked are further reasons to dislike ORM, because they do more of what ORM does: take away transparency and control in exchange for "shortcuts". And what happens when those tools fail? ("migrate" is particularly screwy). No, it's a matter of philosophy. The newbie who has learned to code without ever being taught SQL, and the employee of an "agile" app sweatshop who doesn't care about the quality of his code or data, may prefer ORM for its' quick-and-dirtiness, or may use it by default because he knows no better way. I'm not saying that's wrong, but, there are other philosophies. There is the whole "craftsmanship" idea out there, that we should actually care about making things well. Jobs and Wozniak for example supposedly were adamant that the insides of Apple computers were designed well. If you care about your database and want to use special features like triggers, procedures, recursive queries in Postgres, etc., then ORM is about as helpful as clamshell packaging.

odonnellryan 10y ago
This is a good point, but it can definitely be applied to any abstraction. I don't think ORMs are the best use of abstraction, but I think they're far from the worst use. For most applications they let you do a lot more a lot quicker without knowing a lot of SQL. > And what happens when those tools fail? I haven't used any of these tools that don't let me fall back on raw SQL or writing my own migration in SQL and including it in my code (outside of the DB). So, I haven't had this problem, honestly! Most DB problems I've had are related to _design_. There is an argument there to be had: "Do ORMs encourage bad database design?" but it's a different topic, in my opinion. > There is the whole "craftsmanship" idea out there, that we should actually care about making things well. Making a website is a completely different process than making a chair, or remodeling a kitchen, or designing hardware for a computer. I absolutely make technology that is great, and I do take pride in my work, but if I didn't use an ORM it'd take me much longer to make: and the application would be much less maintainable. > If you care about your database and want to use special features like triggers, procedures, recursive queries in Postgres, etc., then ORM is about as helpful as clamshell packaging. I use all these things all the time. I've created migrations in Django to create my Postgres FTS trigger function. Now all these raw-SQL migrations are stored very nicely in their own space, and in version control. And it's just like I typed them into the SQL prompt: but I can just look in my codebase and see what I did :) You can'd even do sub-selects nicely in Django ORM, forget recursive queries. But you can use raw SQL when you need it!

odonnellryan 10y ago

This is a good point, but it can definitely be applied to any abstraction. I don't think ORMs are the best use of abstraction, but I think they're far from the worst use. For most applications they let you do a lot more a lot quicker without knowing a lot of SQL. > And what happens when those tools fail? I haven't used any of these tools that don't let me fall back on raw SQL or writing my own migration in SQL and including it in my code (outside of the DB). So, I haven't had this problem, honestly! Most DB problems I've had are related to _design_. There is an argument there to be had: "Do ORMs encourage bad database design?" but it's a different topic, in my opinion. > There is the whole "craftsmanship" idea out there, that we should actually care about making things well. Making a website is a completely different process than making a chair, or remodeling a kitchen, or designing hardware for a computer. I absolutely make technology that is great, and I do take pride in my work, but if I didn't use an ORM it'd take me much longer to make: and the application would be much less maintainable. > If you care about your database and want to use special features like triggers, procedures, recursive queries in Postgres, etc., then ORM is about as helpful as clamshell packaging. I use all these things all the time. I've created migrations in Django to create my Postgres FTS trigger function. Now all these raw-SQL migrations are stored very nicely in their own space, and in version control. And it's just like I typed them into the SQL prompt: but I can just look in my codebase and see what I did :) You can'd even do sub-selects nicely in Django ORM, forget recursive queries. But you can use raw SQL when you need it!