7 ms·

As a Canadian, your last sentence is comical. I know the US media pushes the Trump = Hitler meme, I really don't buy it though. Worst case, he might just be a

by Mikeb85 10y ago

As a Canadian, your last sentence is comical. I know the US media pushes the Trump = Hitler meme, I really don't buy it though. Worst case, he might just be another GWB.

dopamean 10y ago
> Worst case, he might just be another GWB. I really think the worst thing Trump may do for America is make everyone think George W Bush wasn't that bad. The guy is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. He and his administration did objectively terrible things. Trump so far has proposed a few awful ideas and has spoken in a way that is awful and at times terrifying but he hasn't actually done much, yet. We really can't forget how awful the Bush administration was.
- gdulli 10y ago
  Normalizing neocon policies and forgetting various failures of the GWB era actually feels less dangerous than normalizing transparent and blatant lying and demagoguery and the precedent for handing the country over to whatever reality TV personality blames immigrants the loudest.
- Touche 10y ago
  I judge presidents by their intent. The reason we all hate politics and politicians is because they have an impossible job, of choosing between nothing but bad choices. GWB made a lot of mistakes. But I believe he always had good intentions and wanted to help society. Trump seems to be the modern day Andrew Jackson, and seems to have only personal gain as a motivator in his life.
  - charles-salvia 10y ago
    GWB had the choice of (1) start war in Iraq for vague reasons, (2) don't start war in Iraq. He chose (1).
    - Touche 10y ago
      Good example, as far as the historical record is concerned, GWB thought that they had WMDs. Any claims that it was started for another reason needs evidence or it ventures into conspiracy theory territory.
      - jbooth 10y ago
        Have you ever heard of Project for a New American Century?
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        The idea that Saddam had nuclear weapons seems like more of a conspiracy theory to me, since there was never a single piece of evidence for it. Saddam did have chemical weapons that USA helped him use against Iran, but experts agreed their shelf life had expired and they had aged to the point of uselessness by 2003. Lots of other nations that haven't been invaded do have "WMDs", so anyone reasonable would certainly suspect "another reason".
        Touche 10y ago
        Yep, lots of people were wrong about this. Being wrong is not evil though.
        jessaustin 10y ago
        It certainly can be, and in this case it was. The GWB administration kept ignoring evidence and demanding new evidence until finally evidence could be manufactured that fit their policy goals. (This isn't a partisan judgment, since this tragedy was repeated as farce in the lead-up to the Democrat Party's war in Libya. Still, leaving the Libyans to their own devices after the horrible meaningless unprovoked war has probably been better for everyone than what we've done instead in Iraq.)
        vacri 10y ago
        I don't recall the official line ever being 'nuclear weapons'. It was always 'chemical weapons', which were redefined to be 'weapons of mass destruction' in order to then be grouped with nuclear weapons and have some of that fear become associated with them. The irony, of course, was seen in the US bragging about going into Iraq with the largest conventional munition ever made, the MOAB (mother-of-all-bombs). The Iraq war was used to bolster voters for the next year's election - the US had been punching ghosts and getting nowhere in Afghanistan after 9/11, so they switched targets to one that looked similarly foreign and, more importantly, couldn't hide.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    I judge Presidents by their policy outcomes combined with original intent, with intent mattering very little. You can't feed your family off intentions.
    - Touche 10y ago
      Judging policy as good/bad is different from saying "did objectively terrible things". The latter is saying that they had bad intentions.
      - freeflight 10y ago
        >The latter is saying that they had bad intentions. Does it really? Sometimes good intentions can end up with objectively terrible outcomes because nobody can see into the future. The proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind. I think there's a lot of truth to that proverb because the vast majority of people don't think of themselves, or the reasons they do things, as "evil" or bad. In their internal logic most people act for "good reasons", but "good" can be a rather subjective thing, so the internal reasoning doesn't always translate properly to the outcomes in external reality.
  - 7952 10y ago
    The troubling thing is that presidents are so often consumed with an idea of greatness that is completely antithetical to that. They want to be remembered as a great leader. Not as some lame victim of circumstance. To have heroes we also need villains. It is terribly unfair, but maybe that should act as a warning. If you hold the lives of thousands in the balance your own reputation will be linked to the fate of those people.
- gozur88 10y ago
  GWB wasn't that bad. He was sort of average as far as US presidents go.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
danenania 10y ago
It's easy and comforting to dismiss the idea as hyperbole, but there is a lot of concrete evidence pointing in the other direction. He's not Hitler--he's something new. But anyone who has studied history a bit recognizes similarities in rhetoric and tactics. Given that he is the commander and chief of the most powerful military in history, it seems natural to ask whether there might be also be similarities when it comes to political and societal goals. Given the stakes involved, I can't see how playing it down and hoping for the best is a wise approach.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  he's a right wing populist demagogue, of which there have been countless examples. almost none of them were hitler or anything comparable, and while i am not looking forward to the next 4-8 years, it's not like he published a manifesto on the proclivities of the jew or proposed annexing mexico. quite the opposite on both counts, in fact.
  - alex_young 10y ago
    Trump has repeatedly promoted using nuclear weapons against adversaries without any nuclear deterrent [0] and refers to people he doesn't like as animals [1]. What do you call that? Sounds like the pretext for genocide to me. [0] https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-has-publicly-said-about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-h... [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/787782613633208320 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/78778261363320832...
    - nyolfen 10y ago
      i don't know what to tell you dude, he says stupid shit constantly and i think you should pay more attention to actual policy proposals and implementations than his idiotic tweets and context-free clickbait articles with the most hyperbolic statements that could be extracted from the record for your own sanity. if you're worried about a "pretext for genocide" i'd be way more worried about someone like duterte.
warlox 10y ago
Bush didn't employ actual fascists like vitez Gorka of the Vitezi Rend, a Horthyite organization that helped the Nazis kill Jews, in his administration.
astrodust 10y ago
If Canada wanted nukes we could have nukes. CANDU reactors produce an abundance of plutonium and the technology to extract that. The thing is if Canada had nukes then the US would treat Canada a lot differently in any potential conflict. It'd make a first strike with nuclear weapons necessary instead of something that would be massively disproportionate.

by Mikeb85 10y ago

As a Canadian, your last sentence is comical. I know the US media pushes the Trump = Hitler meme, I really don't buy it though. Worst case, he might just be another GWB.

dopamean 10y ago

> Worst case, he might just be another GWB. I really think the worst thing Trump may do for America is make everyone think George W Bush wasn't that bad. The guy is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. He and his administration did objectively terrible things. Trump so far has proposed a few awful ideas and has spoken in a way that is awful and at times terrifying but he hasn't actually done much, yet. We really can't forget how awful the Bush administration was.

gdulli 10y ago
Normalizing neocon policies and forgetting various failures of the GWB era actually feels less dangerous than normalizing transparent and blatant lying and demagoguery and the precedent for handing the country over to whatever reality TV personality blames immigrants the loudest.
Touche 10y ago
I judge presidents by their intent. The reason we all hate politics and politicians is because they have an impossible job, of choosing between nothing but bad choices. GWB made a lot of mistakes. But I believe he always had good intentions and wanted to help society. Trump seems to be the modern day Andrew Jackson, and seems to have only personal gain as a motivator in his life.
- charles-salvia 10y ago
  GWB had the choice of (1) start war in Iraq for vague reasons, (2) don't start war in Iraq. He chose (1).
  - Touche 10y ago
    Good example, as far as the historical record is concerned, GWB thought that they had WMDs. Any claims that it was started for another reason needs evidence or it ventures into conspiracy theory territory.
    - jbooth 10y ago
      Have you ever heard of Project for a New American Century?
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      The idea that Saddam had nuclear weapons seems like more of a conspiracy theory to me, since there was never a single piece of evidence for it. Saddam did have chemical weapons that USA helped him use against Iran, but experts agreed their shelf life had expired and they had aged to the point of uselessness by 2003. Lots of other nations that haven't been invaded do have "WMDs", so anyone reasonable would certainly suspect "another reason".
      - Touche 10y ago
        Yep, lots of people were wrong about this. Being wrong is not evil though.
        jessaustin 10y ago
        It certainly can be, and in this case it was. The GWB administration kept ignoring evidence and demanding new evidence until finally evidence could be manufactured that fit their policy goals. (This isn't a partisan judgment, since this tragedy was repeated as farce in the lead-up to the Democrat Party's war in Libya. Still, leaving the Libyans to their own devices after the horrible meaningless unprovoked war has probably been better for everyone than what we've done instead in Iraq.)
      - vacri 10y ago
        I don't recall the official line ever being 'nuclear weapons'. It was always 'chemical weapons', which were redefined to be 'weapons of mass destruction' in order to then be grouped with nuclear weapons and have some of that fear become associated with them. The irony, of course, was seen in the US bragging about going into Iraq with the largest conventional munition ever made, the MOAB (mother-of-all-bombs). The Iraq war was used to bolster voters for the next year's election - the US had been punching ghosts and getting nowhere in Afghanistan after 9/11, so they switched targets to one that looked similarly foreign and, more importantly, couldn't hide.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  I judge Presidents by their policy outcomes combined with original intent, with intent mattering very little. You can't feed your family off intentions.
  - Touche 10y ago
    Judging policy as good/bad is different from saying "did objectively terrible things". The latter is saying that they had bad intentions.
    - freeflight 10y ago
      >The latter is saying that they had bad intentions. Does it really? Sometimes good intentions can end up with objectively terrible outcomes because nobody can see into the future. The proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind. I think there's a lot of truth to that proverb because the vast majority of people don't think of themselves, or the reasons they do things, as "evil" or bad. In their internal logic most people act for "good reasons", but "good" can be a rather subjective thing, so the internal reasoning doesn't always translate properly to the outcomes in external reality.
- 7952 10y ago
  The troubling thing is that presidents are so often consumed with an idea of greatness that is completely antithetical to that. They want to be remembered as a great leader. Not as some lame victim of circumstance. To have heroes we also need villains. It is terribly unfair, but maybe that should act as a warning. If you hold the lives of thousands in the balance your own reputation will be linked to the fate of those people.
gozur88 10y ago
GWB wasn't that bad. He was sort of average as far as US presidents go.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

danenania 10y ago

It's easy and comforting to dismiss the idea as hyperbole, but there is a lot of concrete evidence pointing in the other direction. He's not Hitler--he's something new. But anyone who has studied history a bit recognizes similarities in rhetoric and tactics. Given that he is the commander and chief of the most powerful military in history, it seems natural to ask whether there might be also be similarities when it comes to political and societal goals. Given the stakes involved, I can't see how playing it down and hoping for the best is a wise approach.

nyolfen 10y ago
he's a right wing populist demagogue, of which there have been countless examples. almost none of them were hitler or anything comparable, and while i am not looking forward to the next 4-8 years, it's not like he published a manifesto on the proclivities of the jew or proposed annexing mexico. quite the opposite on both counts, in fact.
- alex_young 10y ago
  Trump has repeatedly promoted using nuclear weapons against adversaries without any nuclear deterrent [0] and refers to people he doesn't like as animals [1]. What do you call that? Sounds like the pretext for genocide to me. [0] https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-has-publicly-said-about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-h... [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/787782613633208320 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/78778261363320832...
  - nyolfen 10y ago
    i don't know what to tell you dude, he says stupid shit constantly and i think you should pay more attention to actual policy proposals and implementations than his idiotic tweets and context-free clickbait articles with the most hyperbolic statements that could be extracted from the record for your own sanity. if you're worried about a "pretext for genocide" i'd be way more worried about someone like duterte.

warlox 10y ago

Bush didn't employ actual fascists like vitez Gorka of the Vitezi Rend, a Horthyite organization that helped the Nazis kill Jews, in his administration.

astrodust 10y ago

If Canada wanted nukes we could have nukes. CANDU reactors produce an abundance of plutonium and the technology to extract that. The thing is if Canada had nukes then the US would treat Canada a lot differently in any potential conflict. It'd make a first strike with nuclear weapons necessary instead of something that would be massively disproportionate.