5 ms·

Paraphrase the question in the reverse and you get your answer: What makes this possible on Windows desktops? Stable binary driver ABI. Hardware monoculture. E

by cbhl 10y ago

Paraphrase the question in the reverse and you get your answer: What makes this possible on Windows desktops? Stable binary driver ABI. Hardware monoculture. Expensive driver certification program. Letting hardware vendors release binary drivers without releasing the corresponding sources. An opt-out automatic update mechanism. (Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on the Android team.)

fauigerzigerk 10y ago
So it's Linux fault and Fuchsia is the solution, right? :)
- bighi 10y ago
  What is this "fuck sea" you're talking about and how do I sail in it?
  - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
    It's Google's best shot so far at provoking "Android is dead" rumours: http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/15/speculation-around-googles-fuchsia-os-and-andromeda-is-creating-confusion-and-misinformation/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/15/speculation-around-g... But the reason I brought it up is that Fuchsia OS will have a stable driver ABI.
tjoff 10y ago
Windows runs on many CPU architectures. Android phones are packed with binary blobs.
- bitmapbrother 10y ago
  Windows is one giant binary blob. Also, Android runs on many CPU architectures as well.
ryukafalz 10y ago
I think you're overstating the value of most of those things, because it's also possible on Linux desktops too. You can take a typical off-the-shelf x86 laptop, pop a disk in, and install Linux on it. IMO the key point out of the things you mentioned is the hardware monoculture, because that definitely does help people get Linux running (and keep it running) on new hardware. I'm skeptical about most of the others.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  Your example actually helps prove the point: the fact that Linux can use some of these advantages but not others lines up pretty neatly with the fact that it's generally harder to get Linux running on a given system than it is Windows. I say this as someone whose used Linux and thinks that practically everyone could benefit from giving Linux a try as their primary personal computer (with the always-major caveat that you have to be careful about hardware purchases and/or have someone knowledgeable set it up).
hermitdev 10y ago
Hardware monoculture? Surely you must be joking. There are only a few to several dozen current Android phone models being sold at a given time. There are thousands upon thousands of PC models being sold among major manufacturers. This doesnt even begin to account for home builds or customizations. There is a very slim chamce that anyone has the exact same hardware config as my PC, yet Windows still has to work on it. Sure, vast majority of Windows is x86/x64, but that doesn't mean it is a hardware monoculture.
- asveikau 10y ago
  My understanding is the interface between hardware and kernel is more vendor-specific on ARM than it is on the PC. So the PC has lots of hardware diversity but the way you talk to a given device is already somewhat abstracted from the perspective of the kernel.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    A major thing you have on PCs that you do not have on ARM is bus query. With PCI and later the OS can ask each device on the bus to ID itself and thus figure out if it is a known device type or not (and if not, ask the admin to install drivers). On ARM You have things sitting off various buses that expect the kernel to know what they are and how to talk to them from the word go. It has gotten better as now there exist something known as a device tree that can be read by the kernel at boot. But not every SoC provide support.
- fridsun 10y ago
  If you break those PC models open what's really different? The hardware interfaces of PC has almost always been stable since the age of IBM PC clones. It might not be a monoculture in terms of all the RGB lightings you can put on your machine, but you definitely don't need to worry about different protocols. All the while Android phones can have the weirdest SoC's on the planet in them.
  - hermitdev 10y ago
    I admittedly have zero experience with configuring HW with ARM. However, to say that HW interfaces on the PC have been stable since the age of IBM PC clones is a joke. In the DOS days, users manually had to manually set IO memory addresses and IRQ levels. Early Windows sat on top of DOS, so still had to do it there. Plug'n'Play didn't show up until Windows 95, and even then it was hit and miss. Some devices worked, others required manual configuration. RTM Win95 didn't support USB, either. That took the equivalent of a service pack (although, IIRC, they went by a different name back then. I want to say OSR1 added USB 1.1 support). Windows drivers didn't really get friendlier until the push to the NT kernel & it's HAL. Win2k had limited, but good support. WinXP got better. Vista was a step backwards. Win7, 8 and 10 have incrementally improved on Vista. Even on Windows 10, though, I have updates that "forget" a subset of my USB controllers. Windows doesn't know about drivers for my HOTAS. Most recent windows updates cause it to forget about my secondary monitor. Half the time after an update, my USB keyboard doesn't work (I have to login on my desktop using an on-screen keyboard to correct settings). I'm probably one of the only (or a small handful) of people that have a Geforce 690 & 1080 in the same system. Sure, PC might be better in that most peripherals go over USB. But, not all USB devices work with a generic driver, and Windows often doesn't include non-generic drivers for all but the most popular devices.

by cbhl 10y ago

fauigerzigerk 10y ago

So it's Linux fault and Fuchsia is the solution, right? :)

bighi 10y ago
What is this "fuck sea" you're talking about and how do I sail in it?
- fauigerzigerk 10y ago
  It's Google's best shot so far at provoking "Android is dead" rumours: http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/15/speculation-around-googles-fuchsia-os-and-andromeda-is-creating-confusion-and-misinformation/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/15/speculation-around-g... But the reason I brought it up is that Fuchsia OS will have a stable driver ABI.

tjoff 10y ago

Windows runs on many CPU architectures. Android phones are packed with binary blobs.

bitmapbrother 10y ago
Windows is one giant binary blob. Also, Android runs on many CPU architectures as well.

ryukafalz 10y ago

I think you're overstating the value of most of those things, because it's also possible on Linux desktops too. You can take a typical off-the-shelf x86 laptop, pop a disk in, and install Linux on it. IMO the key point out of the things you mentioned is the hardware monoculture, because that definitely does help people get Linux running (and keep it running) on new hardware. I'm skeptical about most of the others.

wutbrodo 10y ago
Your example actually helps prove the point: the fact that Linux can use some of these advantages but not others lines up pretty neatly with the fact that it's generally harder to get Linux running on a given system than it is Windows. I say this as someone whose used Linux and thinks that practically everyone could benefit from giving Linux a try as their primary personal computer (with the always-major caveat that you have to be careful about hardware purchases and/or have someone knowledgeable set it up).

hermitdev 10y ago

Hardware monoculture? Surely you must be joking. There are only a few to several dozen current Android phone models being sold at a given time. There are thousands upon thousands of PC models being sold among major manufacturers. This doesnt even begin to account for home builds or customizations. There is a very slim chamce that anyone has the exact same hardware config as my PC, yet Windows still has to work on it. Sure, vast majority of Windows is x86/x64, but that doesn't mean it is a hardware monoculture.

asveikau 10y ago
My understanding is the interface between hardware and kernel is more vendor-specific on ARM than it is on the PC. So the PC has lots of hardware diversity but the way you talk to a given device is already somewhat abstracted from the perspective of the kernel.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  A major thing you have on PCs that you do not have on ARM is bus query. With PCI and later the OS can ask each device on the bus to ID itself and thus figure out if it is a known device type or not (and if not, ask the admin to install drivers). On ARM You have things sitting off various buses that expect the kernel to know what they are and how to talk to them from the word go. It has gotten better as now there exist something known as a device tree that can be read by the kernel at boot. But not every SoC provide support.
fridsun 10y ago
If you break those PC models open what's really different? The hardware interfaces of PC has almost always been stable since the age of IBM PC clones. It might not be a monoculture in terms of all the RGB lightings you can put on your machine, but you definitely don't need to worry about different protocols. All the while Android phones can have the weirdest SoC's on the planet in them.
- hermitdev 10y ago
  I admittedly have zero experience with configuring HW with ARM. However, to say that HW interfaces on the PC have been stable since the age of IBM PC clones is a joke. In the DOS days, users manually had to manually set IO memory addresses and IRQ levels. Early Windows sat on top of DOS, so still had to do it there. Plug'n'Play didn't show up until Windows 95, and even then it was hit and miss. Some devices worked, others required manual configuration. RTM Win95 didn't support USB, either. That took the equivalent of a service pack (although, IIRC, they went by a different name back then. I want to say OSR1 added USB 1.1 support). Windows drivers didn't really get friendlier until the push to the NT kernel & it's HAL. Win2k had limited, but good support. WinXP got better. Vista was a step backwards. Win7, 8 and 10 have incrementally improved on Vista. Even on Windows 10, though, I have updates that "forget" a subset of my USB controllers. Windows doesn't know about drivers for my HOTAS. Most recent windows updates cause it to forget about my secondary monitor. Half the time after an update, my USB keyboard doesn't work (I have to login on my desktop using an on-screen keyboard to correct settings). I'm probably one of the only (or a small handful) of people that have a Geforce 690 & 1080 in the same system. Sure, PC might be better in that most peripherals go over USB. But, not all USB devices work with a generic driver, and Windows often doesn't include non-generic drivers for all but the most popular devices.