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This calibre of journalism feels like clickbait or, worse, incompetence. > computer programmers are no longer presumed to be eligible for H-1B visas. This is

This calibre of journalism feels like clickbait or, worse, incompetence. > computer programmers are no longer presumed to be eligible for H-1B visas. This is narrowly true based on what the linked document says. But the intent of document seems to be to rescind old guidance that would consider people with associate's degrees, or in some cases, no degrees, experts. That made sense in the 90s when CS was a newer field of study. It doesn't make sense now. In practice, this is the government dotting an i and crossing a t - they're re-opening this particular service centre and ensuring that it complies with the practices already in place at other service centres. > Lawsuits possible: Releasing this policy change at the start of the application filing window is going to rankle companies who used 17-year-old policy guidance to apply for this year's visas. Some companies may challenge the guidance on the grounds that USCIS didn't provide sufficient notice of the change. Yeah, right. I doubt the big H1B filers thought they could magically sneak someone without credentials through as a result of this. Having done TN and H1B myself, it was always clear that the government had the last word in adjudicating whether you met the standards, especially for the more ambiguous NAFTA occupations like "Computer systems analyst".

Eyas 10y ago
You're not wrong, but I think slightly talking past the point of the article. I don't know which is right, but my understanding is: Prior to the guidance, H1-B filers could just say "this is a programmer, thus they are a specialist" and now they need to provide evidence (i.e. more effort in filing/submitting impending applications). So while the big H1-B filers might not have had an intention to sneak in an Associates' Degree holder, their ready-to-be-submitted applications for Bachelors and Masters-degree holding developers just got a whole lot harder (if the rest of what the article says is correct). I understand this is an old guidance, but it is not clear to me why that in itself means it hasn't been in effect. If it was (which is what the article claims), then this is still a fairly significant last minute change that requires additional last minute documentation for these applications.
- vmarsy 10y ago
  >Prior to the guidance, H1-B filers could just say "this is a programmer, thus they are a specialist" and now they need to provide evidence Only at the Nebraska center, not the California one, nor the Vermont one. And it's only a reminder to the Nebraska center that to be considered a specialist you need to hold a bachelor's degree or higher in that field of study. The California and Vermont one were already applying this rule. It's not clear how many H1-B petitions are event sent to the Nebraska center, but according to [1], originally very few. > their ready-to-be-submitted applications for Bachelors and Masters-degree holding developers just got a whole lot harder That's not my understanding of the notice, but our definition of "a whole lot" might differ. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/i-129-addresses https://www.uscis.gov/i-129-addresses
  - Eyas 10y ago
    Thanks -- this is the explanation I thought was missing from the critique. In that case I agree.
owenversteeg 10y ago
Huh? I know a lot of people I'd consider programming experts who do not have a degree. The majority of programmers I've hired in the last few years don't have a degree (at least in something programming related.) Why do you think there are no experts without degrees?
- rurban 10y ago
  I am such one. In my H1-B application it was worded as "with comparable industry experience". Heck, I even taught 10 years at various universities, but that didn't count to their degree field.
bradleyjg 10y ago
"But the intent of document seems to be to rescind old guidance that would consider people with associate's degrees, or in some cases, no degrees, experts. " No, it isn't about the people, it's about the occupation. They are saying that entry level computer programming jobs don't constitute a "specialty occupation" because some employers hire people for those jobs without a bachelors degree in the relevant field or equivalent experience. Even if the employee being petitioned for has a bachelors degree in the relevant field or equivalent experience, if the job category, across the industry, doesn't generally require it the offer will not qualify for an H1B.
mikeryan 10y ago
this is narrowly true based on what the linked document says. But the intent of document seems to be to rescind old guidance that would consider people with associate's degrees, or in some cases, no degrees, experts. That made sense in the 90s when CS was a newer field of study. It doesn't make sense now. This statement only would apply to newer/younger applicants. The world is awash with engineers in their late 30s and above who may not have any sort of CS degree - or who's CS degrees would be fairly obsolete at this point who are excellent software engineers. I know a bunch. That doesn't even begin to include the large number of folks I know from less fortunate countries who didn't have the opportunities to go to college but have managed to become excellent engineers regardless.

Eyas 10y ago

You're not wrong, but I think slightly talking past the point of the article. I don't know which is right, but my understanding is: Prior to the guidance, H1-B filers could just say "this is a programmer, thus they are a specialist" and now they need to provide evidence (i.e. more effort in filing/submitting impending applications). So while the big H1-B filers might not have had an intention to sneak in an Associates' Degree holder, their ready-to-be-submitted applications for Bachelors and Masters-degree holding developers just got a whole lot harder (if the rest of what the article says is correct). I understand this is an old guidance, but it is not clear to me why that in itself means it hasn't been in effect. If it was (which is what the article claims), then this is still a fairly significant last minute change that requires additional last minute documentation for these applications.

vmarsy 10y ago
>Prior to the guidance, H1-B filers could just say "this is a programmer, thus they are a specialist" and now they need to provide evidence Only at the Nebraska center, not the California one, nor the Vermont one. And it's only a reminder to the Nebraska center that to be considered a specialist you need to hold a bachelor's degree or higher in that field of study. The California and Vermont one were already applying this rule. It's not clear how many H1-B petitions are event sent to the Nebraska center, but according to [1], originally very few. > their ready-to-be-submitted applications for Bachelors and Masters-degree holding developers just got a whole lot harder That's not my understanding of the notice, but our definition of "a whole lot" might differ. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/i-129-addresses https://www.uscis.gov/i-129-addresses
- Eyas 10y ago
  Thanks -- this is the explanation I thought was missing from the critique. In that case I agree.

owenversteeg 10y ago

Huh? I know a lot of people I'd consider programming experts who do not have a degree. The majority of programmers I've hired in the last few years don't have a degree (at least in something programming related.) Why do you think there are no experts without degrees?

rurban 10y ago
I am such one. In my H1-B application it was worded as "with comparable industry experience". Heck, I even taught 10 years at various universities, but that didn't count to their degree field.

bradleyjg 10y ago

"But the intent of document seems to be to rescind old guidance that would consider people with associate's degrees, or in some cases, no degrees, experts. " No, it isn't about the people, it's about the occupation. They are saying that entry level computer programming jobs don't constitute a "specialty occupation" because some employers hire people for those jobs without a bachelors degree in the relevant field or equivalent experience. Even if the employee being petitioned for has a bachelors degree in the relevant field or equivalent experience, if the job category, across the industry, doesn't generally require it the offer will not qualify for an H1B.

mikeryan 10y ago

this is narrowly true based on what the linked document says. But the intent of document seems to be to rescind old guidance that would consider people with associate's degrees, or in some cases, no degrees, experts. That made sense in the 90s when CS was a newer field of study. It doesn't make sense now. This statement only would apply to newer/younger applicants. The world is awash with engineers in their late 30s and above who may not have any sort of CS degree - or who's CS degrees would be fairly obsolete at this point who are excellent software engineers. I know a bunch. That doesn't even begin to include the large number of folks I know from less fortunate countries who didn't have the opportunities to go to college but have managed to become excellent engineers regardless.