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People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths. Your th

People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths. Your thesis is that they do: "They are born that way." It's probably best to agree to disagree as to how much someone at the bottom can influence their situation in the modern day. You're talking about nearly a century ago.

WalterBright 10y ago
Being a born engineer is not the same thing as being born into various external circumstances. > It's probably best to agree to disagree as to how much someone at the bottom can influence their situation in the modern day. You're talking about nearly a century ago. You're right it's different today. There's a lot MORE opportunity today than a century ago. Heck, I can get any information I want about any field of knowledge by pushing a button at my desk. How awesome is that? How about all those people becoming billionaires in their early 20s? That was utterly unheard of 50 years ago.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  To clarify my thoughts on this: It sounds like you're saying "If someone is motivated and smart, they can always make significant opportunities for themselves." That's a very convenient model, isn't it? If someone fails to make opportunities for themselves, then they must not be very smart and motivated. It's like epicycles: The model can fit however you want it to fit. That's why it's worth being suspicious of it.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    That is indeed what I'm saying. And the converse is also true - if someone needs excuses for failure, they can always find plenty. > then they must not be very smart and motivated. Negation does not work like that. A implies B does not mean that !A implies !B.
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      Why believe in a model that you can fit to whatever data you want? I leave you with Feynman noting that you cannot prove a vague theory wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN_-Flswy0&feature=youtu.be&list=PLLzGzdSNup63lMYeOpU9Hax6MBsTjdDas&t=1324 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN_-Flswy0&feature=youtu.be... Your model seems to fit that description.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        > Why Because I've been around a long time, and know lots of people over many years. The ones who believe they can make their lives better and take action to do so, tend to get results and are happier. Those who believe they are victims of chance with no choice, tend to take no action, achieve little, and wind up bitter and defeated. Note I said nothing about their circumstances. I choose the happy path. If you choose the victim of fate path, I am sorry for you. Feynman is a terrible argument for your position - I've read his biographies, and he always chose the happy path.
        sillysaurus3 10y ago
        Actually, Feynman has gone on at length about prejudice against certain ideas, and that the people who hold these prejudices are unlikely to change their minds. I also suspect you didn't actually watch the video, so I'm not sure what else there is to say if you're unwilling to listen to counterarguments. I'm glad you've personally achieved success. It's mildly annoying that you attribute your success to your own inborn merits rather than the mixture of hard work and luck that success seems to be derived from, but you're in good company. You can indeed close your eyes and choose the happy path. I hope you'll never be cut down by forces you cannot control.
        WalterBright 10y ago
        What do you want, and what have you done today to move towards that? Are you waiting for luck to pay you a visit first? I presume you have sound mind and body, and live in the US. That's all the luck you need. Anything else is up to you. YOUR choice. Even your health is about 60-80% under your control, if epidemiological studies are to be believed.

WalterBright 10y ago

Being a born engineer is not the same thing as being born into various external circumstances. > It's probably best to agree to disagree as to how much someone at the bottom can influence their situation in the modern day. You're talking about nearly a century ago. You're right it's different today. There's a lot MORE opportunity today than a century ago. Heck, I can get any information I want about any field of knowledge by pushing a button at my desk. How awesome is that? How about all those people becoming billionaires in their early 20s? That was utterly unheard of 50 years ago.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
To clarify my thoughts on this: It sounds like you're saying "If someone is motivated and smart, they can always make significant opportunities for themselves." That's a very convenient model, isn't it? If someone fails to make opportunities for themselves, then they must not be very smart and motivated. It's like epicycles: The model can fit however you want it to fit. That's why it's worth being suspicious of it.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  That is indeed what I'm saying. And the converse is also true - if someone needs excuses for failure, they can always find plenty. > then they must not be very smart and motivated. Negation does not work like that. A implies B does not mean that !A implies !B.
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    Why believe in a model that you can fit to whatever data you want? I leave you with Feynman noting that you cannot prove a vague theory wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN_-Flswy0&feature=youtu.be&list=PLLzGzdSNup63lMYeOpU9Hax6MBsTjdDas&t=1324 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN_-Flswy0&feature=youtu.be... Your model seems to fit that description.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      > Why Because I've been around a long time, and know lots of people over many years. The ones who believe they can make their lives better and take action to do so, tend to get results and are happier. Those who believe they are victims of chance with no choice, tend to take no action, achieve little, and wind up bitter and defeated. Note I said nothing about their circumstances. I choose the happy path. If you choose the victim of fate path, I am sorry for you. Feynman is a terrible argument for your position - I've read his biographies, and he always chose the happy path.
      - sillysaurus3 10y ago
        Actually, Feynman has gone on at length about prejudice against certain ideas, and that the people who hold these prejudices are unlikely to change their minds. I also suspect you didn't actually watch the video, so I'm not sure what else there is to say if you're unwilling to listen to counterarguments. I'm glad you've personally achieved success. It's mildly annoying that you attribute your success to your own inborn merits rather than the mixture of hard work and luck that success seems to be derived from, but you're in good company. You can indeed close your eyes and choose the happy path. I hope you'll never be cut down by forces you cannot control.
        WalterBright 10y ago
        What do you want, and what have you done today to move towards that? Are you waiting for luck to pay you a visit first? I presume you have sound mind and body, and live in the US. That's all the luck you need. Anything else is up to you. YOUR choice. Even your health is about 60-80% under your control, if epidemiological studies are to be believed.