5 ms·

>What's sad is most of the entry-level work I see across most fields could be done with a minimum of training, even though employers insist on a college degree.

>What's sad is most of the entry-level work I see across most fields could be done with a minimum of training, even though employers insist on a college degree. I'm in a graduate program now and I've become extremely cynical about "college" and "university". The mandatory degree("credentialing") is starting, in my opinion, to look more like institutional fraud than any honest attempt at teaching people anything. Whoever figures that out, the credentialing part, could go a long way toward fixing that problem. Is anyone working on this?

thesagan 10y ago
I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category. It's enraging, frankly, because they meet and usually exceed all other requirements and yet the credential is what stops the hire. I hear theories that cite insurance (that power company case) and other reasons, and I think they all kind of stink. It's as if higher education is more of a gatekeeper than mobilizer. (In some industries.)
- remarkEon 10y ago
  It would probably be quite difficult to hammer together some "agreed upon standard" for "levels" of proficiency in X_language. That said, it's been done before...with spoken languages for the Military. Taking the DLPT will give you a rating on your proficiency, and then you get both the credentialing and then additional pay (Once upon a time I took it for Arabic and scored some 0+s). It'd be hard, but I don't think it would be impossible to do it for some kind of development credential. http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_T...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- flukus 10y ago
  > I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category I wonder if that's disguised ageism. A lot more people are going to college in the last decade than in previous decades.
  - thesagan 10y ago
    If ageism is hitting in our early 30s things are worse than I thought.
seanwessmith 10y ago
There's a company thats working on getting there. https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/sigma/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/sigma/
- remarkEon 10y ago
  It looks like they're solving a different problem. Lots of analog credentials do exist that should be digitized (the SCUBA one is a great example that I've personally encountered), but I'm talking about a replacement for traditional, outrageously expensive 4-year Universities where a fraction of what you pay for is directed toward what you'll do for work - but more importantly, folks that wish to career switch from whatever they'd doing to a more technical field but lack that 4-year "degree".
LoonyBalloony 10y ago
"The mandatory degree("credentialing") is starting, in my opinion, to look more like institutional fraud than any honest attempt at teaching people anything." New age indentured servants.
brut 10y ago
One of my professors made a point about college: it's not about getting a job or not, but rather, being a button-pusher or understanding what you're doing. It's way too easy to become a "button-pusher". I am 100% confident that I could successfully perform a relatively complex cardiac surgery on a patient with about 2-3 weeks of training and some good staff. "Cut here, tie that together, done". The thing is, there is a HUGE difference between what I described and actually understanding what one is doing, in the deepest meaning of that word. That's what you go to college for: to pass on that deep knowledge. You don't go to college to "get a job". So the problem really is with employers: why do they insist on a college degree when they could ask for a technical school diploma, or whatever. There's nothing wrong with college per se, IMO, as I think you'll agree.
- reneherse 10y ago
  Unfortunately, IME, neither is "deep knowledge" gained by an average student during an average undergraduate education, despite practitioners' best intentions.
  - brut 10y ago
    You are right. It is also my experience that some graduates from technical schools are much more knowledgeable than some graduates from college. But the point stands, the two types of schools are serving different needs. We need both.
- donw 10y ago
  If the goal of universities is to pass on "deep knowledge", then I would argue that the vast majority of such institutions are utter failures at their mission.
  - brut 10y ago
    We might have a definition problem, where some institutions that offer what amounts to a technical education (i.e. with almost no mandatory "theoretical" courses) call themselves "colleges". In the workplace I definitely experience the difference between one who received a formal education, in the sense of raw theory, and one who studied how to "do" things. Both are useful, but they serve different purposes.
intended 10y ago
Your ire is focused on the symptom not the cure. Take a look at india and china, they have this exact same problem, and it's a result of immense demand for STEM engineers, no matter what. Marketing employees will have gone through a STEM education on a regular basis. The way it unfolds is this - 1) If you aren't a degree holder, you aren't employable, there's millions of degree holders fighting for a job 2) you are a degree holder? Well there's 1000s fighting for your position, are you a hard degree or soft degree? 3) HArd STEM? What's your pedigree? In short - allowing the system to take root (degree as pre requisite for jobs), sets of a vicious cycle. This cycle only begins when you have a large group of unemployable humans. To compete and be employed they increasingly turn to signaling. Eventually the old signal (actually interested In learning) gets overwhelmed with people who just want a job. it's a jobs problem not an education problem.
bobbington 10y ago
Elon musk said in an interview that he doesn't care if somebody even has a high school diploma! For him it is about results, not credentials. No wonder he's such a good businessman.

thesagan 10y ago

I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category. It's enraging, frankly, because they meet and usually exceed all other requirements and yet the credential is what stops the hire. I hear theories that cite insurance (that power company case) and other reasons, and I think they all kind of stink. It's as if higher education is more of a gatekeeper than mobilizer. (In some industries.)

remarkEon 10y ago
It would probably be quite difficult to hammer together some "agreed upon standard" for "levels" of proficiency in X_language. That said, it's been done before...with spoken languages for the Military. Taking the DLPT will give you a rating on your proficiency, and then you get both the credentialing and then additional pay (Once upon a time I took it for Arabic and scored some 0+s). It'd be hard, but I don't think it would be impossible to do it for some kind of development credential. http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_T...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
flukus 10y ago
> I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category I wonder if that's disguised ageism. A lot more people are going to college in the last decade than in previous decades.
- thesagan 10y ago
  If ageism is hitting in our early 30s things are worse than I thought.

seanwessmith 10y ago

There's a company thats working on getting there. https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/sigma/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/20/sigma/

remarkEon 10y ago
It looks like they're solving a different problem. Lots of analog credentials do exist that should be digitized (the SCUBA one is a great example that I've personally encountered), but I'm talking about a replacement for traditional, outrageously expensive 4-year Universities where a fraction of what you pay for is directed toward what you'll do for work - but more importantly, folks that wish to career switch from whatever they'd doing to a more technical field but lack that 4-year "degree".

LoonyBalloony 10y ago

"The mandatory degree("credentialing") is starting, in my opinion, to look more like institutional fraud than any honest attempt at teaching people anything." New age indentured servants.

brut 10y ago

One of my professors made a point about college: it's not about getting a job or not, but rather, being a button-pusher or understanding what you're doing. It's way too easy to become a "button-pusher". I am 100% confident that I could successfully perform a relatively complex cardiac surgery on a patient with about 2-3 weeks of training and some good staff. "Cut here, tie that together, done". The thing is, there is a HUGE difference between what I described and actually understanding what one is doing, in the deepest meaning of that word. That's what you go to college for: to pass on that deep knowledge. You don't go to college to "get a job". So the problem really is with employers: why do they insist on a college degree when they could ask for a technical school diploma, or whatever. There's nothing wrong with college per se, IMO, as I think you'll agree.

reneherse 10y ago
Unfortunately, IME, neither is "deep knowledge" gained by an average student during an average undergraduate education, despite practitioners' best intentions.
- brut 10y ago
  You are right. It is also my experience that some graduates from technical schools are much more knowledgeable than some graduates from college. But the point stands, the two types of schools are serving different needs. We need both.
donw 10y ago
If the goal of universities is to pass on "deep knowledge", then I would argue that the vast majority of such institutions are utter failures at their mission.
- brut 10y ago
  We might have a definition problem, where some institutions that offer what amounts to a technical education (i.e. with almost no mandatory "theoretical" courses) call themselves "colleges". In the workplace I definitely experience the difference between one who received a formal education, in the sense of raw theory, and one who studied how to "do" things. Both are useful, but they serve different purposes.

intended 10y ago

Your ire is focused on the symptom not the cure. Take a look at india and china, they have this exact same problem, and it's a result of immense demand for STEM engineers, no matter what. Marketing employees will have gone through a STEM education on a regular basis. The way it unfolds is this - 1) If you aren't a degree holder, you aren't employable, there's millions of degree holders fighting for a job 2) you are a degree holder? Well there's 1000s fighting for your position, are you a hard degree or soft degree? 3) HArd STEM? What's your pedigree? In short - allowing the system to take root (degree as pre requisite for jobs), sets of a vicious cycle. This cycle only begins when you have a large group of unemployable humans. To compete and be employed they increasingly turn to signaling. Eventually the old signal (actually interested In learning) gets overwhelmed with people who just want a job. it's a jobs problem not an education problem.

bobbington 10y ago

Elon musk said in an interview that he doesn't care if somebody even has a high school diploma! For him it is about results, not credentials. No wonder he's such a good businessman.