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> ... they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating ... This is kind of off-topic and nitpicky of me, but it's something that's been on my min

> ... they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating ... This is kind of off-topic and nitpicky of me, but it's something that's been on my mind recently, so I'll go ahead anyway: For many things in life, condemnations are much easier to make than defenses, but that doesn't mean the defense is without merit. I once took an upper-level math class where the instructor told us that we were not allowed to receive any help from people who were not currently enrolled in, or administering, the course. I said "screw that" and routinely asked my friend at another university, who had taken a similar course, for advice and clarifications on the subject matter and assignments. As a result I did very well in the course, particularly on the exams (where of course I had no one helping me). This was clearly cheating, but to fully justify why I felt the rule was unfair, and why I felt it was morally permissible to cheat, would have required a full exposition of my beliefs on the purpose of education and fairness and personal responsibility. Meanwhile, anyone could just say to me, "that's against the rules, it's cheating, and you're putting the people who don't cheat at a disadvantage." Much easier to condemn than to defend. This is really just a nitpick, though, and I agree with your overall point.

WalterBright 10y ago
I remember a quote from a scifi book years ago, that a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. They'd be scientists/engineers for free if they could. Ironically, this often results in them being very well paid :-) It reminds me of the fighter pilots who say "I can't believe they actually PAY me to fly these things!" There's always a shortage of those kinds of people.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. What if your mother was a drug addict and your father was a fast-food worker? Would you still be a natural-born scientist? It's too easy to think "People are born how they are."
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    Does it count if your mother took in laundry to survive and your father was a usually-out-of-work bricklayer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer) and his autobiography: "Kelly: More than My Share of It All" by Kelly Johnson
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      It's always possible to find exceptions, of course. But there are exceptional people from all walks of life. Also, the wikipedia page makes it sound like it was all due to his merit: His parents were Swedish, from the city of Malmö, county of Scania. Kelly was ashamed of his family's poverty, and vowed to return one day in prominence.[6] Johnson was 13 years old when he won a prize for his first aircraft design. He worked his way through Flint Central High School and graduated in 1928, then went to Flint Junior College, now known as Mott Community College, and finally to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where he received a Bachelor's and Master's Degree in Aeronautical Engineering. Who granted him the prize? It's fortunate they were paying attention to his work. How did he attend college with no money? It's fortunate he managed to find a source of income. Nowadays college is prohibitively expensive for those in poverty who don't achieve a full-ride scholarship or loans. And if you entered the workforce and later decide to go to college, you don't qualify for loans. It seems less useful to say that someone will become something rather than they might overcome X and Y to become Z.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        You might want to pick up Kelly's biography, where you can read about how easy it was for him :-) Kelly also had a bunch of siblings who are forgotten by history. People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths.
        sillysaurus3 10y ago
        People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths. Your thesis is that they do: "They are born that way." It's probably best to agree to disagree as to how much someone at the bottom can influence their situation in the modern day. You're talking about nearly a century ago.

WalterBright 10y ago

I remember a quote from a scifi book years ago, that a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. They'd be scientists/engineers for free if they could. Ironically, this often results in them being very well paid :-) It reminds me of the fighter pilots who say "I can't believe they actually PAY me to fly these things!" There's always a shortage of those kinds of people.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. What if your mother was a drug addict and your father was a fast-food worker? Would you still be a natural-born scientist? It's too easy to think "People are born how they are."
- WalterBright 10y ago
  Does it count if your mother took in laundry to survive and your father was a usually-out-of-work bricklayer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer) and his autobiography: "Kelly: More than My Share of It All" by Kelly Johnson
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    It's always possible to find exceptions, of course. But there are exceptional people from all walks of life. Also, the wikipedia page makes it sound like it was all due to his merit: His parents were Swedish, from the city of Malmö, county of Scania. Kelly was ashamed of his family's poverty, and vowed to return one day in prominence.[6] Johnson was 13 years old when he won a prize for his first aircraft design. He worked his way through Flint Central High School and graduated in 1928, then went to Flint Junior College, now known as Mott Community College, and finally to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where he received a Bachelor's and Master's Degree in Aeronautical Engineering. Who granted him the prize? It's fortunate they were paying attention to his work. How did he attend college with no money? It's fortunate he managed to find a source of income. Nowadays college is prohibitively expensive for those in poverty who don't achieve a full-ride scholarship or loans. And if you entered the workforce and later decide to go to college, you don't qualify for loans. It seems less useful to say that someone will become something rather than they might overcome X and Y to become Z.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      You might want to pick up Kelly's biography, where you can read about how easy it was for him :-) Kelly also had a bunch of siblings who are forgotten by history. People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths.
      - sillysaurus3 10y ago
        People (especially in America) have choices about their path in life. They are not hapless victims of circumstance and do not follow preordained paths. Your thesis is that they do: "They are born that way." It's probably best to agree to disagree as to how much someone at the bottom can influence their situation in the modern day. You're talking about nearly a century ago.