4 ms·

I agree with the sentiment but the notion that all the folks inclined to work with their hands just need to become knowledge workers misses the mark I think. A

I agree with the sentiment but the notion that all the folks inclined to work with their hands just need to become knowledge workers misses the mark I think. A bigger problem is that capitalists can easily take advantage of labor arbitrage. But laborers can't easily take advantage of cost of living arbitrage.

tomc1985 10y ago
It's not that they should all become knowledge workers, but tradespeople too -- construction, plumbing, electricians, etc. From what I hear it is very hard to break into these fields without prior training, which you need to acquire on your own and with some other means of supporting yourself (which isn't always available). I would love to see a return to master-and-apprentice style workplace relationships.
- unholythree 10y ago
  Some of these trades do have apprenticeship program's in their unions and at least in my city in the licensing requirements. To be a journeyman electrician you are first an apprentice for 4 or five years, and at least in union shops your pay reflects your (theoretical) ability. So a fifth year apprentice make something like 80% of a journeyman as they should be capable of 80% of his tasks; while a first year apprentice pulls in less than half as he likely knows little of the trade.
  - hackermailman 10y ago
    Vast majority of these apprenticeship programs first require that you have a 2 yr degree from some technical institute though, and there's very few that will hire you based on high school grades and agree to pay for your education with the exception of some power companies. Seems if you're crazy enough to be a powerline tech they will pay to train you.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Caveman_Coder 10y ago
      "Seems if you're crazy enough..." Why is this crazy? It's a very important job that actually contributes to society. I have much respect for T-men, Linemen, and Sub Techs.
      - hackermailman 10y ago
        Crazy as in dangerous, many deaths and injuries here over the years of powerline techs.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  That all gets paid for by unions, which The US is about to push out in the interest of "freedom".
  - thehardsphere 10y ago
    By "freedom", you mean because 90% of the country isn't a member of a union and many of those people don't want to be.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  These trades are not difficult to break into, except if you want to make a livable wage, and that requires a union. I guarantee anyone of you here, if remotely physically fit, could get a non-union job in construction. Good luck making $10-15 an hour. Even being a non-union electrican is not difficult. The contractor, will many times, train you, but it just doesn't pay more than retail. You will see a lot of Contractors. It's not that difficult to get a licence. C-6 electrical being the exception. They are checking experience lately, and elevator mechanics--forget the number. It's difficult to get into a good union, like local 6 in San Francisco though. Why is the pay so low in construction, even field like Electrical, and Telecommunications? Partly it's because jobs are just hard to come by. And you gave a Huge swath of people who will apply to that job. A couple of guys just got out of prison on the 70's. "What should we do now? Most jobs like will check out backround. Yes--they could check background then too. Convicts, "Let's start a landscaping company, or work in construction?" Good idea. Many could do these labor intensive jobs, and pull themselfs back into society. They can't do it anymore, because there is just too much competition. I won't touch that debate. If anyone reads this, and want to get into construction, apply to a union. How do you know this? Been non-union, union, and Contractor. If you have some training, getting your Contractor's license is not that difficult. You will have a hard time making a good living off it. Most of you will fail, but the ones that really market themselfs, and have connections will make a living. You will find most people want to pay you the least amount for your labor, and knowledge. The wealthy are the worst. You will be one of those people who pay minimum wage. I have never hired a guy off the sidewalk though--it's just something I won't do. Why will you just pay minimum wage? You can't compete paying livable wages. United States has had a huge problem with low paying jobs for a long time. I have known something is very wrong for a long time. I stopped listening to those employment numbers, they just don't add up to what I see, except the "able bodied workers, but gave up" number". And as my dad said, if you fall into construction; Electrical is still the best, but it's all backbreaking work. Look into being an elevator mechanic--it's a high paying, interesting field--believe it or not. It's basically a union apprenticeship, and unions are only in big cities. A lot of guys want to get into Carpetry because they like woodworking. On most commercial job sites, you won't see much wood. It's all metal studs, and "get it done." If you do custom homes, yes--you will be able to do some woodworking. You can teach yourself to become an Electrician. Getting licenced by the states is kinda difficult. You can even make over $100/hr. on certain markets like San Francisco. Union companies will hire you now, because the economy is so hot there. You will be called white paper though, and when the good times end--you will go right back to non-union shops, or another low paying job.
eru 10y ago
Not only cost-of-living arbitrage, but also productivity arbitrage. That's why we need more migration (internal and across borders), and lower restrictions on building more capacity for housing in highly productive places like San Francisco, Silicon Valley, New York, etc.

tomc1985 10y ago

It's not that they should all become knowledge workers, but tradespeople too -- construction, plumbing, electricians, etc. From what I hear it is very hard to break into these fields without prior training, which you need to acquire on your own and with some other means of supporting yourself (which isn't always available). I would love to see a return to master-and-apprentice style workplace relationships.

unholythree 10y ago
Some of these trades do have apprenticeship program's in their unions and at least in my city in the licensing requirements. To be a journeyman electrician you are first an apprentice for 4 or five years, and at least in union shops your pay reflects your (theoretical) ability. So a fifth year apprentice make something like 80% of a journeyman as they should be capable of 80% of his tasks; while a first year apprentice pulls in less than half as he likely knows little of the trade.
- hackermailman 10y ago
  Vast majority of these apprenticeship programs first require that you have a 2 yr degree from some technical institute though, and there's very few that will hire you based on high school grades and agree to pay for your education with the exception of some power companies. Seems if you're crazy enough to be a powerline tech they will pay to train you.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Caveman_Coder 10y ago
    "Seems if you're crazy enough..." Why is this crazy? It's a very important job that actually contributes to society. I have much respect for T-men, Linemen, and Sub Techs.
    - hackermailman 10y ago
      Crazy as in dangerous, many deaths and injuries here over the years of powerline techs.
Spooky23 10y ago
That all gets paid for by unions, which The US is about to push out in the interest of "freedom".
- thehardsphere 10y ago
  By "freedom", you mean because 90% of the country isn't a member of a union and many of those people don't want to be.
icantdrive55 10y ago
These trades are not difficult to break into, except if you want to make a livable wage, and that requires a union. I guarantee anyone of you here, if remotely physically fit, could get a non-union job in construction. Good luck making $10-15 an hour. Even being a non-union electrican is not difficult. The contractor, will many times, train you, but it just doesn't pay more than retail. You will see a lot of Contractors. It's not that difficult to get a licence. C-6 electrical being the exception. They are checking experience lately, and elevator mechanics--forget the number. It's difficult to get into a good union, like local 6 in San Francisco though. Why is the pay so low in construction, even field like Electrical, and Telecommunications? Partly it's because jobs are just hard to come by. And you gave a Huge swath of people who will apply to that job. A couple of guys just got out of prison on the 70's. "What should we do now? Most jobs like will check out backround. Yes--they could check background then too. Convicts, "Let's start a landscaping company, or work in construction?" Good idea. Many could do these labor intensive jobs, and pull themselfs back into society. They can't do it anymore, because there is just too much competition. I won't touch that debate. If anyone reads this, and want to get into construction, apply to a union. How do you know this? Been non-union, union, and Contractor. If you have some training, getting your Contractor's license is not that difficult. You will have a hard time making a good living off it. Most of you will fail, but the ones that really market themselfs, and have connections will make a living. You will find most people want to pay you the least amount for your labor, and knowledge. The wealthy are the worst. You will be one of those people who pay minimum wage. I have never hired a guy off the sidewalk though--it's just something I won't do. Why will you just pay minimum wage? You can't compete paying livable wages. United States has had a huge problem with low paying jobs for a long time. I have known something is very wrong for a long time. I stopped listening to those employment numbers, they just don't add up to what I see, except the "able bodied workers, but gave up" number". And as my dad said, if you fall into construction; Electrical is still the best, but it's all backbreaking work. Look into being an elevator mechanic--it's a high paying, interesting field--believe it or not. It's basically a union apprenticeship, and unions are only in big cities. A lot of guys want to get into Carpetry because they like woodworking. On most commercial job sites, you won't see much wood. It's all metal studs, and "get it done." If you do custom homes, yes--you will be able to do some woodworking. You can teach yourself to become an Electrician. Getting licenced by the states is kinda difficult. You can even make over $100/hr. on certain markets like San Francisco. Union companies will hire you now, because the economy is so hot there. You will be called white paper though, and when the good times end--you will go right back to non-union shops, or another low paying job.

eru 10y ago

Not only cost-of-living arbitrage, but also productivity arbitrage. That's why we need more migration (internal and across borders), and lower restrictions on building more capacity for housing in highly productive places like San Francisco, Silicon Valley, New York, etc.