7 ms·

I just want to add that a lot of my jobless (and semi-employed), nontechnical friends would gladly jump into a good, entry-level position that would train them.

by tomc1985 10y ago

I just want to add that a lot of my jobless (and semi-employed), nontechnical friends would gladly jump into a good, entry-level position that would train them. What's sad is most of the entry-level work I see across most fields could be done with a minimum of training, even though employers insist on a college degree. There's a lot of computing grunt work that I would love to pawn off on a junior, but our hiring funnel is so messed up...

0x445442 10y ago
I agree with the sentiment but the notion that all the folks inclined to work with their hands just need to become knowledge workers misses the mark I think. A bigger problem is that capitalists can easily take advantage of labor arbitrage. But laborers can't easily take advantage of cost of living arbitrage.
- tomc1985 10y ago
  It's not that they should all become knowledge workers, but tradespeople too -- construction, plumbing, electricians, etc. From what I hear it is very hard to break into these fields without prior training, which you need to acquire on your own and with some other means of supporting yourself (which isn't always available). I would love to see a return to master-and-apprentice style workplace relationships.
  - unholythree 10y ago
    Some of these trades do have apprenticeship program's in their unions and at least in my city in the licensing requirements. To be a journeyman electrician you are first an apprentice for 4 or five years, and at least in union shops your pay reflects your (theoretical) ability. So a fifth year apprentice make something like 80% of a journeyman as they should be capable of 80% of his tasks; while a first year apprentice pulls in less than half as he likely knows little of the trade.
    - hackermailman 10y ago
      Vast majority of these apprenticeship programs first require that you have a 2 yr degree from some technical institute though, and there's very few that will hire you based on high school grades and agree to pay for your education with the exception of some power companies. Seems if you're crazy enough to be a powerline tech they will pay to train you.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - Caveman_Coder 10y ago
        "Seems if you're crazy enough..." Why is this crazy? It's a very important job that actually contributes to society. I have much respect for T-men, Linemen, and Sub Techs.
        hackermailman 10y ago
        Crazy as in dangerous, many deaths and injuries here over the years of powerline techs.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    That all gets paid for by unions, which The US is about to push out in the interest of "freedom".
    - thehardsphere 10y ago
      By "freedom", you mean because 90% of the country isn't a member of a union and many of those people don't want to be.
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    These trades are not difficult to break into, except if you want to make a livable wage, and that requires a union. I guarantee anyone of you here, if remotely physically fit, could get a non-union job in construction. Good luck making $10-15 an hour. Even being a non-union electrican is not difficult. The contractor, will many times, train you, but it just doesn't pay more than retail. You will see a lot of Contractors. It's not that difficult to get a licence. C-6 electrical being the exception. They are checking experience lately, and elevator mechanics--forget the number. It's difficult to get into a good union, like local 6 in San Francisco though. Why is the pay so low in construction, even field like Electrical, and Telecommunications? Partly it's because jobs are just hard to come by. And you gave a Huge swath of people who will apply to that job. A couple of guys just got out of prison on the 70's. "What should we do now? Most jobs like will check out backround. Yes--they could check background then too. Convicts, "Let's start a landscaping company, or work in construction?" Good idea. Many could do these labor intensive jobs, and pull themselfs back into society. They can't do it anymore, because there is just too much competition. I won't touch that debate. If anyone reads this, and want to get into construction, apply to a union. How do you know this? Been non-union, union, and Contractor. If you have some training, getting your Contractor's license is not that difficult. You will have a hard time making a good living off it. Most of you will fail, but the ones that really market themselfs, and have connections will make a living. You will find most people want to pay you the least amount for your labor, and knowledge. The wealthy are the worst. You will be one of those people who pay minimum wage. I have never hired a guy off the sidewalk though--it's just something I won't do. Why will you just pay minimum wage? You can't compete paying livable wages. United States has had a huge problem with low paying jobs for a long time. I have known something is very wrong for a long time. I stopped listening to those employment numbers, they just don't add up to what I see, except the "able bodied workers, but gave up" number". And as my dad said, if you fall into construction; Electrical is still the best, but it's all backbreaking work. Look into being an elevator mechanic--it's a high paying, interesting field--believe it or not. It's basically a union apprenticeship, and unions are only in big cities. A lot of guys want to get into Carpetry because they like woodworking. On most commercial job sites, you won't see much wood. It's all metal studs, and "get it done." If you do custom homes, yes--you will be able to do some woodworking. You can teach yourself to become an Electrician. Getting licenced by the states is kinda difficult. You can even make over $100/hr. on certain markets like San Francisco. Union companies will hire you now, because the economy is so hot there. You will be called white paper though, and when the good times end--you will go right back to non-union shops, or another low paying job.
- eru 10y ago
  Not only cost-of-living arbitrage, but also productivity arbitrage. That's why we need more migration (internal and across borders), and lower restrictions on building more capacity for housing in highly productive places like San Francisco, Silicon Valley, New York, etc.
arjie 10y ago
Quit your job, hire your non-technical friends. Train them up and run your consultancy that can beat everyone on price and is at least as good. Riches await. Use the fact that you have the experience to sell the consultancy. Then use your army of once non-technical friends as your code farm. You can pay them less than market (since they were otherwise making nothing) and you can charge market. You're promising an easy market opportunity. And that always raises the question, "If it's so easy, why aren't you doing it?"
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Probably because you'll be undercut by a company that doesn't need to invest in training because they will outsource or hire an immigrant. And most people don't have the access to capital to start a business.
- glangdale 10y ago
  ... because his "once non-technical friends", after he trains them up, will either have to be paid market rate or will eventually jump ship to someone who does? This is a bit simplified (perhaps these guys will be grateful enough to stick around for a while, and not act like Homo Economicus). You also can't charge full market rate if you are using the equivalent of apprentices/journeymen to do the work. It's the classic problem of training.
  - zxcmx 10y ago
    So the way a company charges market rate for juniors varies by industry. In the trades, they generally get apprentices to do work at full chargeout (with guidance) with final signoff from certified person. In consulting (IT, law, legal) you can either have tiered rates based on seniority of resource or a mixture of experience types doing "flat rate" job.
    - taneq 10y ago
      > In the trades, they generally get apprentices to do work at full chargeout (with guidance) with final signoff from certified person. And this is why I generally do the work myself rather than getting a tradie in. If I want someone inexperienced to give it a go and probably screw up, I'll screw it up myself on a Saturday afternoon rather than paying $120/hr for someone else to screw it up. At least after that I know how to fix it next time.
Spooky23 10y ago
Why do that, when you can hire some body shop $90/hr to pay some poor Indian kid $18?
- intended 10y ago
  Hey don't forget - that poor Indian kid is still better off for it.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    This is true, but when an entire society does this, then all it does is exploit cheap labor and leads to a race to the bottom to see who can charge the least, all while the capital owners reap the rewards.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    We would all be better off if our immigration system didn't create a process where some bodyshop pimp gets to skim 50-80% of the billing! When my grandparents immigrated here, they did scutwork for low pay, but at least they got to work for their employer. There wasn't some layer of middlemen skimming the cream.
remarkEon 10y ago
>What's sad is most of the entry-level work I see across most fields could be done with a minimum of training, even though employers insist on a college degree. I'm in a graduate program now and I've become extremely cynical about "college" and "university". The mandatory degree("credentialing") is starting, in my opinion, to look more like institutional fraud than any honest attempt at teaching people anything. Whoever figures that out, the credentialing part, could go a long way toward fixing that problem. Is anyone working on this?
- thesagan 10y ago
  I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category. It's enraging, frankly, because they meet and usually exceed all other requirements and yet the credential is what stops the hire. I hear theories that cite insurance (that power company case) and other reasons, and I think they all kind of stink. It's as if higher education is more of a gatekeeper than mobilizer. (In some industries.)
  - remarkEon 10y ago
    It would probably be quite difficult to hammer together some "agreed upon standard" for "levels" of proficiency in X_language. That said, it's been done before...with spoken languages for the Military. Taking the DLPT will give you a rating on your proficiency, and then you get both the credentialing and then additional pay (Once upon a time I took it for Arabic and scored some 0+s). It'd be hard, but I don't think it would be impossible to do it for some kind of development credential. http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_T...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - 10y ago
phkahler 10y ago
I met a guy who was highly motivated, seemed quite capable of doing work. He had lost his low level manufacturing job probably due to his own issues (he felt blamed of other peoples crappy work). This guy was desperate, had no place to stay, couldn't find a job due to a long criminal record (10 years in prison for a bunch of felonies) I swear if he got some solid mental health help, and a bit of training, he could make a solid electronics tech which we need where I work. He was totally ready to take whatever chance someone would give him, but he's essentially been discarded by society.
- LoonyBalloony 10y ago
  People don't matter, money does. The economy works for money, not the humans it was created to serve.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  Let's back up and not make it about this particular person. I don't care what job you're working in, if you were willing to hire someone who has not been able to hold a job in the field, who had a criminal record and even mental health issues, you would be inundated with applicants. If you interviewed than and selected based on motivation to work, you'd have a huge problem selecting from the people who are absolutely desperate to get a job. But, in all honesty, can you actually provide what they need? Can you deal with alcoholism, or drug dependency? Can you deal with absenteeism? Can you deal with behaviour disorders that might even be violent? I'm not saying a candidate will definitely have any of these problems (or others), but I am saying that I have worked with people with all of these kinds of issues before. It is crippling. It's hard enough to do a good job when you are with people who are able to hide their personal problems away for 8 hours a day and concentrate on work. If you have to deal with someone else's problems on top of your own on top of both of your jobs, can you really cope? If the answer is yes, then please hire these people and help them. If the answer is no, then you're going to have to draw the line somewhere. Where? How much risk are you willing to take on board? How much risk can your organisation realistically deal with? The places I've worked at can barely cope with the problems they already have. Looking for more problems to solve will not actually help anyone if you can't actually solve them. It sucks to let someone drown, but it is foolish to dive in and try to save them when you can't swim.

0x445442 10y ago

I agree with the sentiment but the notion that all the folks inclined to work with their hands just need to become knowledge workers misses the mark I think. A bigger problem is that capitalists can easily take advantage of labor arbitrage. But laborers can't easily take advantage of cost of living arbitrage.

tomc1985 10y ago
It's not that they should all become knowledge workers, but tradespeople too -- construction, plumbing, electricians, etc. From what I hear it is very hard to break into these fields without prior training, which you need to acquire on your own and with some other means of supporting yourself (which isn't always available). I would love to see a return to master-and-apprentice style workplace relationships.
- unholythree 10y ago
  Some of these trades do have apprenticeship program's in their unions and at least in my city in the licensing requirements. To be a journeyman electrician you are first an apprentice for 4 or five years, and at least in union shops your pay reflects your (theoretical) ability. So a fifth year apprentice make something like 80% of a journeyman as they should be capable of 80% of his tasks; while a first year apprentice pulls in less than half as he likely knows little of the trade.
  - hackermailman 10y ago
    Vast majority of these apprenticeship programs first require that you have a 2 yr degree from some technical institute though, and there's very few that will hire you based on high school grades and agree to pay for your education with the exception of some power companies. Seems if you're crazy enough to be a powerline tech they will pay to train you.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Caveman_Coder 10y ago
      "Seems if you're crazy enough..." Why is this crazy? It's a very important job that actually contributes to society. I have much respect for T-men, Linemen, and Sub Techs.
      - hackermailman 10y ago
        Crazy as in dangerous, many deaths and injuries here over the years of powerline techs.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  That all gets paid for by unions, which The US is about to push out in the interest of "freedom".
  - thehardsphere 10y ago
    By "freedom", you mean because 90% of the country isn't a member of a union and many of those people don't want to be.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  These trades are not difficult to break into, except if you want to make a livable wage, and that requires a union. I guarantee anyone of you here, if remotely physically fit, could get a non-union job in construction. Good luck making $10-15 an hour. Even being a non-union electrican is not difficult. The contractor, will many times, train you, but it just doesn't pay more than retail. You will see a lot of Contractors. It's not that difficult to get a licence. C-6 electrical being the exception. They are checking experience lately, and elevator mechanics--forget the number. It's difficult to get into a good union, like local 6 in San Francisco though. Why is the pay so low in construction, even field like Electrical, and Telecommunications? Partly it's because jobs are just hard to come by. And you gave a Huge swath of people who will apply to that job. A couple of guys just got out of prison on the 70's. "What should we do now? Most jobs like will check out backround. Yes--they could check background then too. Convicts, "Let's start a landscaping company, or work in construction?" Good idea. Many could do these labor intensive jobs, and pull themselfs back into society. They can't do it anymore, because there is just too much competition. I won't touch that debate. If anyone reads this, and want to get into construction, apply to a union. How do you know this? Been non-union, union, and Contractor. If you have some training, getting your Contractor's license is not that difficult. You will have a hard time making a good living off it. Most of you will fail, but the ones that really market themselfs, and have connections will make a living. You will find most people want to pay you the least amount for your labor, and knowledge. The wealthy are the worst. You will be one of those people who pay minimum wage. I have never hired a guy off the sidewalk though--it's just something I won't do. Why will you just pay minimum wage? You can't compete paying livable wages. United States has had a huge problem with low paying jobs for a long time. I have known something is very wrong for a long time. I stopped listening to those employment numbers, they just don't add up to what I see, except the "able bodied workers, but gave up" number". And as my dad said, if you fall into construction; Electrical is still the best, but it's all backbreaking work. Look into being an elevator mechanic--it's a high paying, interesting field--believe it or not. It's basically a union apprenticeship, and unions are only in big cities. A lot of guys want to get into Carpetry because they like woodworking. On most commercial job sites, you won't see much wood. It's all metal studs, and "get it done." If you do custom homes, yes--you will be able to do some woodworking. You can teach yourself to become an Electrician. Getting licenced by the states is kinda difficult. You can even make over $100/hr. on certain markets like San Francisco. Union companies will hire you now, because the economy is so hot there. You will be called white paper though, and when the good times end--you will go right back to non-union shops, or another low paying job.
eru 10y ago
Not only cost-of-living arbitrage, but also productivity arbitrage. That's why we need more migration (internal and across borders), and lower restrictions on building more capacity for housing in highly productive places like San Francisco, Silicon Valley, New York, etc.

arjie 10y ago

Quit your job, hire your non-technical friends. Train them up and run your consultancy that can beat everyone on price and is at least as good. Riches await. Use the fact that you have the experience to sell the consultancy. Then use your army of once non-technical friends as your code farm. You can pay them less than market (since they were otherwise making nothing) and you can charge market. You're promising an easy market opportunity. And that always raises the question, "If it's so easy, why aren't you doing it?"

crdoconnor 10y ago
Probably because you'll be undercut by a company that doesn't need to invest in training because they will outsource or hire an immigrant. And most people don't have the access to capital to start a business.
glangdale 10y ago
... because his "once non-technical friends", after he trains them up, will either have to be paid market rate or will eventually jump ship to someone who does? This is a bit simplified (perhaps these guys will be grateful enough to stick around for a while, and not act like Homo Economicus). You also can't charge full market rate if you are using the equivalent of apprentices/journeymen to do the work. It's the classic problem of training.
- zxcmx 10y ago
  So the way a company charges market rate for juniors varies by industry. In the trades, they generally get apprentices to do work at full chargeout (with guidance) with final signoff from certified person. In consulting (IT, law, legal) you can either have tiered rates based on seniority of resource or a mixture of experience types doing "flat rate" job.
  - taneq 10y ago
    > In the trades, they generally get apprentices to do work at full chargeout (with guidance) with final signoff from certified person. And this is why I generally do the work myself rather than getting a tradie in. If I want someone inexperienced to give it a go and probably screw up, I'll screw it up myself on a Saturday afternoon rather than paying $120/hr for someone else to screw it up. At least after that I know how to fix it next time.

Spooky23 10y ago

Why do that, when you can hire some body shop $90/hr to pay some poor Indian kid $18?

intended 10y ago
Hey don't forget - that poor Indian kid is still better off for it.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  This is true, but when an entire society does this, then all it does is exploit cheap labor and leads to a race to the bottom to see who can charge the least, all while the capital owners reap the rewards.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  We would all be better off if our immigration system didn't create a process where some bodyshop pimp gets to skim 50-80% of the billing! When my grandparents immigrated here, they did scutwork for low pay, but at least they got to work for their employer. There wasn't some layer of middlemen skimming the cream.

remarkEon 10y ago

>What's sad is most of the entry-level work I see across most fields could be done with a minimum of training, even though employers insist on a college degree. I'm in a graduate program now and I've become extremely cynical about "college" and "university". The mandatory degree("credentialing") is starting, in my opinion, to look more like institutional fraud than any honest attempt at teaching people anything. Whoever figures that out, the credentialing part, could go a long way toward fixing that problem. Is anyone working on this?

thesagan 10y ago
I really wish someone would. I know too many folks who've been laid off after an otherwise very successful run, and will not be interviewed by new companies because they fall sort in the credential category. It's enraging, frankly, because they meet and usually exceed all other requirements and yet the credential is what stops the hire. I hear theories that cite insurance (that power company case) and other reasons, and I think they all kind of stink. It's as if higher education is more of a gatekeeper than mobilizer. (In some industries.)
- remarkEon 10y ago
  It would probably be quite difficult to hammer together some "agreed upon standard" for "levels" of proficiency in X_language. That said, it's been done before...with spoken languages for the Military. Taking the DLPT will give you a rating on your proficiency, and then you get both the credentialing and then additional pay (Once upon a time I took it for Arabic and scored some 0+s). It'd be hard, but I don't think it would be impossible to do it for some kind of development credential. http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_Tests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Proficiency_T...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- 10y ago

phkahler 10y ago

I met a guy who was highly motivated, seemed quite capable of doing work. He had lost his low level manufacturing job probably due to his own issues (he felt blamed of other peoples crappy work). This guy was desperate, had no place to stay, couldn't find a job due to a long criminal record (10 years in prison for a bunch of felonies) I swear if he got some solid mental health help, and a bit of training, he could make a solid electronics tech which we need where I work. He was totally ready to take whatever chance someone would give him, but he's essentially been discarded by society.

LoonyBalloony 10y ago
People don't matter, money does. The economy works for money, not the humans it was created to serve.
mikekchar 10y ago
Let's back up and not make it about this particular person. I don't care what job you're working in, if you were willing to hire someone who has not been able to hold a job in the field, who had a criminal record and even mental health issues, you would be inundated with applicants. If you interviewed than and selected based on motivation to work, you'd have a huge problem selecting from the people who are absolutely desperate to get a job. But, in all honesty, can you actually provide what they need? Can you deal with alcoholism, or drug dependency? Can you deal with absenteeism? Can you deal with behaviour disorders that might even be violent? I'm not saying a candidate will definitely have any of these problems (or others), but I am saying that I have worked with people with all of these kinds of issues before. It is crippling. It's hard enough to do a good job when you are with people who are able to hide their personal problems away for 8 hours a day and concentrate on work. If you have to deal with someone else's problems on top of your own on top of both of your jobs, can you really cope? If the answer is yes, then please hire these people and help them. If the answer is no, then you're going to have to draw the line somewhere. Where? How much risk are you willing to take on board? How much risk can your organisation realistically deal with? The places I've worked at can barely cope with the problems they already have. Looking for more problems to solve will not actually help anyone if you can't actually solve them. It sucks to let someone drown, but it is foolish to dive in and try to save them when you can't swim.