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>Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? I think you missed my main point

>Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? I think you missed my main point, to wit, that in any given population, there will be a significant percentage for whom manual labor is their only viable means for doing productive, remunerative work. Consider that the median IQ is 100. [1] That means that half of US citizens (roughly speaking, since I don't know how that was arrived at) have an IQ below 100. So they're never going to be engineers or software developers or pharmacists. And, yes, there may be a cultural aspect as well, but if that were the only obstacle I would think it would be surmountable. These people have it hard enough with imported manufactured goods, automation, and soon, AI, reducing the demand for people of their ability level. And the Democratic party wants them to also compete with immigrants who are even more poor and more desperate than they are. > In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here) Another alternative is to recognize the fact that, while unrestricted free trade and immigration may improve certain metrics like GDP, and corporate profits, that not everyone automatically benefits from growth in those metrics. We could structure our immigration laws in a ways that do not further erode the already-shrinking piece of the pie that our citizens on the lower rungs of the achievement ladder are relying on. What might we call this new approach to governing our country? Perhaps there's something catchy that would resonate with those voters. Perhaps something like "America First!" Oh wait, never mind, Chris Matthews on MSNBC said that phrase is "Hitlerian". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification

throw1233212323 10y ago
Dude, spot on comment. Seriously. I've commented elsewhere in the thread that the 'education for all' theory, while very good and worth pursuing for those interested, actually has a subtext: "Education for all (who are able to be educated)" What about everyone else?
soundwave106 10y ago
On the flip side, free trade, immigration, and automation lower the price of consumer goods. Ultimately, this is the question: people may have "had it" with automation and AI, but are they willing to pay for a product built with more expensive labor? Because in the end, price rules in many people's minds when it comes to the choice of goods they buy. And businesses know this. You could restrict immigration to zero in my opinion, and this still would be a problem. Most factory floors are heavily automated. It's kind of like many farm crops: it would be foolhardy (more costly, less reliable) to force farmers to replace the single combine with huge amounts of human labor. Likewise, you're not going to replace the machines on the factory floor with people unless you accept a much higher price for the consumer. Heck, you could eliminate all imports, and manufacturing floors still would heavily use machines. That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. But 1950s style industrial work is not coming back, immigrants or not. Eliminating the immigrants would only open up the opportunity for certain low-salary manual labor positions. While that might add jobs, it won't be the same kind of jobs their fathers had.
- throw123456788 10y ago
  > That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. Just take Japan's NEET problem and multiply it (at least) a few fold. That isn't just what is coming for us, it's what is here now, and getting worse. Other commenters have said it better than I could but many people in our society are just not suited to the solution being offered here (and elsewhere), of more education and training. They just aren't.
CuriouslyC 10y ago
You're overvaluing IQ. IQ measures a narrow set of skills, and it mainly improves unskilled performance. For example, IQ only correlates with chess ability for novice players. This correlation disappears by the master level. Additionally, it is not an unchangeable attribute, it just doesn't tend to change. This has more to do with people's circumstances and environment not changing than their inability to change. There is clinical data demonstrating IQ changes of over 20 points within the space of about 4 years. I've read about a number of cases where impoverished children with below average IQs achieve above average scores several years later with improved nutrition and an enriched environment.
- orangecat 10y ago
  For example, IQ only correlates with chess ability for novice players. This correlation disappears by the master level. Ok, but how many master-level players have average or lower IQs?

throw1233212323 10y ago

Dude, spot on comment. Seriously. I've commented elsewhere in the thread that the 'education for all' theory, while very good and worth pursuing for those interested, actually has a subtext: "Education for all (who are able to be educated)" What about everyone else?

soundwave106 10y ago

On the flip side, free trade, immigration, and automation lower the price of consumer goods. Ultimately, this is the question: people may have "had it" with automation and AI, but are they willing to pay for a product built with more expensive labor? Because in the end, price rules in many people's minds when it comes to the choice of goods they buy. And businesses know this. You could restrict immigration to zero in my opinion, and this still would be a problem. Most factory floors are heavily automated. It's kind of like many farm crops: it would be foolhardy (more costly, less reliable) to force farmers to replace the single combine with huge amounts of human labor. Likewise, you're not going to replace the machines on the factory floor with people unless you accept a much higher price for the consumer. Heck, you could eliminate all imports, and manufacturing floors still would heavily use machines. That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. But 1950s style industrial work is not coming back, immigrants or not. Eliminating the immigrants would only open up the opportunity for certain low-salary manual labor positions. While that might add jobs, it won't be the same kind of jobs their fathers had.

throw123456788 10y ago
> That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. Just take Japan's NEET problem and multiply it (at least) a few fold. That isn't just what is coming for us, it's what is here now, and getting worse. Other commenters have said it better than I could but many people in our society are just not suited to the solution being offered here (and elsewhere), of more education and training. They just aren't.

CuriouslyC 10y ago

You're overvaluing IQ. IQ measures a narrow set of skills, and it mainly improves unskilled performance. For example, IQ only correlates with chess ability for novice players. This correlation disappears by the master level. Additionally, it is not an unchangeable attribute, it just doesn't tend to change. This has more to do with people's circumstances and environment not changing than their inability to change. There is clinical data demonstrating IQ changes of over 20 points within the space of about 4 years. I've read about a number of cases where impoverished children with below average IQs achieve above average scores several years later with improved nutrition and an enriched environment.

orangecat 10y ago
For example, IQ only correlates with chess ability for novice players. This correlation disappears by the master level. Ok, but how many master-level players have average or lower IQs?