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I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technica

I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. They can be taught to perform tasks, and some of them have people skills that are good enough that they can lead teams, but they will never be computer programmers unless we commit as a society to put in decades of work per person. These are men who would be farm labor in another era, except that we mechanized all of that. Or they might be steel workers in another era, except that we mechanized all of that and then shipped it overseas. Many of them are tradesmen or warehouse workers and will be mechanized out of a job in the coming decades. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, but it's that as a society we no longer have a productive use for them. Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades, and I think that that transition will be hard for us as a society. The only other alternative I can think of involves us colonizing the Moon or Mars, because those are the kinds of places where men like these shine.

Jimmy 10y ago
>Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades While the wives do... what? Work white-collar jobs? We've just been talking about how hard it is for a certain subsection of men to get these jobs, so why are their wives able to fair better? Is it because women are smarter than men? Some other factor?
- throw123456788 10y ago
  > why are their wives able to fair better It's right there in his comment: > I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. Women are actually pretty good at that. I say this as a man who really struggles with it, with a few friends that have the same issue.
  - Jimmy 10y ago
    >Women are actually pretty good at that. But are they just flat out better at it than men? What data do you have to support that assertion? Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men. You may struggle with certain things, but there are many men who don't. And of course there are plenty of women who struggle with CS as well.
    - throw123456788 10y ago
      > What data do you have to support that assertion? TFA. The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That very dynamic would seem to suggest some underlying issue, and IMO the issue is that generally speaking, a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). Here[0] is an example article about the differences in academic behaviors between men and women. > Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men I'm trying to speak in aggregate, but I do concede that most of our profession is male. The entire population of our profession as a percentage of the workforce is rather small though[1], as compared to something much more accessible to the average person like being a truck driver[2] (which itself is going away sometime in the next 5-10 years, only exacerbating the problem being discussed here). [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-girls-get-better-grades-than-boys-do/380318/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-gi... [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/heavy-and-tractor-trailer-truck-drivers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/h...
      - Jimmy 10y ago
        >The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That doesn't mean that all women are participating in "knowledge work" jobs though. K-12 education and healthcare are also two fast growing sectors that have a high proportion of female workers. I doubt that all jobs in those sectors should be considered "knowledge work". Participation stats for women could also be due to sectors like HR, or just generic office work. Obviously I don't deny the existence of female programmers and scientists. I just don't think there's evidence to suggest that they can do those jobs strictly better than men can. >a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). I think this is plausible.
throw1233212323 10y ago
Why is this comment string so far down the thread? You and rhapsodic are both hitting the nail on the head. I say this as another midwesterner born and raised in a blue collar area. I loved where I grew up, and (most) of the people I grew up with! Like you implied, I haven't seen ANYONE speaking to this issue, let alone any kind of solution to it.

Jimmy 10y ago

>Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades While the wives do... what? Work white-collar jobs? We've just been talking about how hard it is for a certain subsection of men to get these jobs, so why are their wives able to fair better? Is it because women are smarter than men? Some other factor?

throw123456788 10y ago
> why are their wives able to fair better It's right there in his comment: > I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. Women are actually pretty good at that. I say this as a man who really struggles with it, with a few friends that have the same issue.
- Jimmy 10y ago
  >Women are actually pretty good at that. But are they just flat out better at it than men? What data do you have to support that assertion? Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men. You may struggle with certain things, but there are many men who don't. And of course there are plenty of women who struggle with CS as well.
  - throw123456788 10y ago
    > What data do you have to support that assertion? TFA. The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That very dynamic would seem to suggest some underlying issue, and IMO the issue is that generally speaking, a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). Here[0] is an example article about the differences in academic behaviors between men and women. > Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men I'm trying to speak in aggregate, but I do concede that most of our profession is male. The entire population of our profession as a percentage of the workforce is rather small though[1], as compared to something much more accessible to the average person like being a truck driver[2] (which itself is going away sometime in the next 5-10 years, only exacerbating the problem being discussed here). [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-girls-get-better-grades-than-boys-do/380318/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-gi... [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/heavy-and-tractor-trailer-truck-drivers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/h...
    - Jimmy 10y ago
      >The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That doesn't mean that all women are participating in "knowledge work" jobs though. K-12 education and healthcare are also two fast growing sectors that have a high proportion of female workers. I doubt that all jobs in those sectors should be considered "knowledge work". Participation stats for women could also be due to sectors like HR, or just generic office work. Obviously I don't deny the existence of female programmers and scientists. I just don't think there's evidence to suggest that they can do those jobs strictly better than men can. >a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). I think this is plausible.

throw1233212323 10y ago

Why is this comment string so far down the thread? You and rhapsodic are both hitting the nail on the head. I say this as another midwesterner born and raised in a blue collar area. I loved where I grew up, and (most) of the people I grew up with! Like you implied, I haven't seen ANYONE speaking to this issue, let alone any kind of solution to it.