7 ms·

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher wor

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic - it's made up by a couple of PT Barnum types, rather than centuries of tradition. You don't need to try hard if you're resting on a thousand years of tradition. https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=371&v=7q6brMrFw0E https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=371&v=7q6brMrFw0E Perhaps the lesson is that you should join the most absurd religion (or invent your own) and then make up for its absurdity strive to live a good life in order to prove the effectiveness of the religion.

Dobbs 10y ago
On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/news/mn-28924 http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/news/mn-28924
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Statistics about Utah must always be taken with a grain of salt, even larger than is typically appropriate for gross/large-scale generalizations. People know that Utah stats are seen as a proxy for the success and/or failure of Mormonism and will distort findings to accommodate their agenda. A quick example of this is that after Prop 8 passed in CA, a "study", using data sourced from a single, unnamed "top 10 pay site vendor" was published claiming that Utah had the highest incidence of online porn use in the US. That myth stuck for a while, but PornHub started releasing state-by-state traffic reports on its blog and have repeatedly and clearly debunked it. By those numbers, Utah regularly ranks in the bottom 10 states for online porn use. Regarding depression, Mormon leaders explicitly encourage people to seek mental health treatment if/as necessary, and actively work to destigmatize the use of antidepressants, so increased use in Utah should not be a surprise. Leaders have told them it's OK, so they proceed without the guilt that may be unresolved in other areas. Just conjecture here, but maybe a correlation between suicide and antidepressant use is a signal that antidepressants are inadequate and/or, at least in some cases, potentially counterproductive, rather than a signal that the populace is less happy vs. the baseline.
  - narrowrail 10y ago
    I've had so many jack-mormon friends over the last 20 years. We'd drink beer and whiskey, and smoke a joint. Anti-depressants are straight-up drugs. It's like removing the fructose from fruit and leaving the fiber. The mormons I've known that were still devout wouldn't even consume caffeine. Edit: Over the last 30 years my 3 best ski days were at Solitude, Snowbird, and Alta. I just wish you all had more realistic laws for beer and weed.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  A joke I heard once is that entering Provo you see a sign: "Have a Nice Day. It's the Law."
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- thedevil 10y ago
  My personal experience is consistent with your second point. But I'd be careful about making conclusions from the suicide/antidepressant statistics. It's shown to be highly correlated to altitude. I've included a couple links from google search to demonstrate the point. That being said, the Mormon/LDS church does cause some psychological hardships for certain groups such as LGBT and ex-mormons... at least in my anecdotal experience. suicide rate map: http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/03/higher-suicide-rates-out-west-due-to.html http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/03/higher-suicide-rates-o... altitude map: http://weather.unisys.com/usgs/ http://weather.unisys.com/usgs/
  - coryfklein 10y ago
    How do you account for the uptick in the suicide rate since the introduction of the Mormon policy of excommunicating gays and disallowing their children from baptism? The altitude certainly didn't increase...
themodelplumber 10y ago
As a Mormon, allow me to suggest that the logic underlying your comment re:less authenticity strikes me as kinda PT Barnum in its own special way. I mean, I am used to receiving informed tips on the history of my church from those who know better than me, but the other high-wire mental gymnastics here, well, hope we got a nice net underneath.
amyjess 10y ago
Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linked-to-utahs-culture-surrounding-lgbt http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke... Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-rise-in-uta_b_10798286.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/utah_s_youth_suicide_rate_has_nearly_tripled_since_2007 http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/utah_s_y...
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind, and sympathetic to those who engage in homosexual behavior, despite disagreements with reference to the propriety of the conduct. Gay people can and do attend church services, and are included in church activities insofar as their personal compliance with worthiness standards allows. The Church has emphasized repeatedly that homosexual proclivities or temptations themselves are not sinful. Gay couples even attend church as couples, and the congregation is expected to be warm and non-judgmental. See https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ .
  - ScottBurson 10y ago
    Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm and non-judgmental". From the FAQ accessible via your link: Identifying as gay may mean you experience same-sex attraction but choose not to act on these feelings. Yes, and it might also mean that you experience same-sex attraction which is returned and which you choose to act on gleefully! This page is trying to sound non-judgmental, but it shows its true feelings when it says things like this, without allowing for the obvious alternative. And if you think the subtext isn't heard, guess again!
austenallred 10y ago
As an obviously-biased Mormon I'm not sure the conclusion follows. Certainly there are fantastical elements to my religion (as there are to all religions I know of), but we don't do what we do to compensate for that. We do what we do because we believe it.
- redsummer 10y ago
  Perhaps not to compensate, but to validate. You would never feel compelled to act in a certain way because the sky is blue, or because water is wet. But if you have a political or religious belief, however absurd, you feel a compulsion to act.
  - austenallred 10y ago
    I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"
    - dorian-graph 10y ago
      You're missing a fundamental part so I'll add it in, but even so, it's still incredibly simplified so as to push a certain derogatory view. "I believe God wants me to do x because y therefore I do x because y and/or z"
      - redsummer 10y ago
        The y in that is the supernatural stuff - the story. I wouldn't go to see a movie if it didn't have a good story. I wouldn't go if it was just a list of facts. But that's what the dull modern atheists types want me to do in life.
        dorian-graph 10y ago
        Funnily, my intent was to show that y was the dull stuff. Maybe another addition would be "I believe God wants me to do x because y, in the context of s, therefore I do x because y and/or z"? For example, take a thing Mormons are commonly known for—not drinking alcohol. It came about in what we call the 'word of wisdom' [1] [2]. s := The story part would be "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—" x := don't drink (and other health related things like eating meat sparingly) y := to be healthy in both body and mind/spirit z := I have faith (faith is effectively trust in someone who has shown that they're trustworthy) in God [1] https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng [2] https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng&old=true https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng&old=true
mythrwy 10y ago
To be fair PT Barnum types from thousands of years ago should be no more believable than PT Barnum types from 150 years ago.
- redsummer 10y ago
  True, but history produces a variety of personalities so a longer established religion will be more rounded. Schools of thought will generate opposing schools of thought etc. Like if you throw a tennis ball hard into a circular room it will end up going pretty much everywhere.
dorian-graph 10y ago
> The Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic What you're saying goes against the premise of the church—it being the ancient religion that was lost, and then restored, hence ".. in latter days". In fact, this pattern is common throughout scripture (Bible, Book of Mormon, etc.) where the people fall into what's called apostasy, things are lost, and then it's returned again. Someone else has already commented on your line about the absurdity, otherwise I would've said something similar.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hackuser 10y ago
> Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic - it's made up by a couple of PT Barnum types This would be outrageous to day about Jews, Lutherans, Muslims ... Mormons are not a special case. At the least, if criticizing other people's religion, offer something that demonstrates thought and contributes value, not just a cheap insult, and show some respect. Mormon's origin stories are no more unbelievable than other religions', full of angels, the voice of God, ascensions to heaven, reincarnation, etc. People just give more the other stories more leeway because they are the status quo. > Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. This is a great example of a common problem of political dialog and ideas. It's not real. Which "people" does this refer to, specifically? Can you name one? Can you cite specific statements by a popular group that corroborates what you are saying? These "people" created in the mind of the commenter, who then criticizes figments of his/her own imagination. I'm not saying that to pick on the commenter, but to point out that everyone has the tendency of creating somewhat paranoid, imaginary representations of the "other" - 100% dogmatic adherents to political ideologies, hyperbolic, incorporating all the bad things we hear about these other people. Real people are complex (and not even internally consistent), generally good willed toward you, and don't object to things like high marriage rates and kids with parents.

Dobbs 10y ago

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/news/mn-28924 http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/news/mn-28924

cookiecaper 10y ago
Statistics about Utah must always be taken with a grain of salt, even larger than is typically appropriate for gross/large-scale generalizations. People know that Utah stats are seen as a proxy for the success and/or failure of Mormonism and will distort findings to accommodate their agenda. A quick example of this is that after Prop 8 passed in CA, a "study", using data sourced from a single, unnamed "top 10 pay site vendor" was published claiming that Utah had the highest incidence of online porn use in the US. That myth stuck for a while, but PornHub started releasing state-by-state traffic reports on its blog and have repeatedly and clearly debunked it. By those numbers, Utah regularly ranks in the bottom 10 states for online porn use. Regarding depression, Mormon leaders explicitly encourage people to seek mental health treatment if/as necessary, and actively work to destigmatize the use of antidepressants, so increased use in Utah should not be a surprise. Leaders have told them it's OK, so they proceed without the guilt that may be unresolved in other areas. Just conjecture here, but maybe a correlation between suicide and antidepressant use is a signal that antidepressants are inadequate and/or, at least in some cases, potentially counterproductive, rather than a signal that the populace is less happy vs. the baseline.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  I've had so many jack-mormon friends over the last 20 years. We'd drink beer and whiskey, and smoke a joint. Anti-depressants are straight-up drugs. It's like removing the fructose from fruit and leaving the fiber. The mormons I've known that were still devout wouldn't even consume caffeine. Edit: Over the last 30 years my 3 best ski days were at Solitude, Snowbird, and Alta. I just wish you all had more realistic laws for beer and weed.
ScottBurson 10y ago
A joke I heard once is that entering Provo you see a sign: "Have a Nice Day. It's the Law."
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
thedevil 10y ago
My personal experience is consistent with your second point. But I'd be careful about making conclusions from the suicide/antidepressant statistics. It's shown to be highly correlated to altitude. I've included a couple links from google search to demonstrate the point. That being said, the Mormon/LDS church does cause some psychological hardships for certain groups such as LGBT and ex-mormons... at least in my anecdotal experience. suicide rate map: http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/03/higher-suicide-rates-out-west-due-to.html http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/03/higher-suicide-rates-o... altitude map: http://weather.unisys.com/usgs/ http://weather.unisys.com/usgs/
- coryfklein 10y ago
  How do you account for the uptick in the suicide rate since the introduction of the Mormon policy of excommunicating gays and disallowing their children from baptism? The altitude certainly didn't increase...

themodelplumber 10y ago

As a Mormon, allow me to suggest that the logic underlying your comment re:less authenticity strikes me as kinda PT Barnum in its own special way. I mean, I am used to receiving informed tips on the history of my church from those who know better than me, but the other high-wire mental gymnastics here, well, hope we got a nice net underneath.

amyjess 10y ago

Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linked-to-utahs-culture-surrounding-lgbt http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke... Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-rise-in-uta_b_10798286.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/utah_s_youth_suicide_rate_has_nearly_tripled_since_2007 http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/utah_s_y...

cookiecaper 10y ago
As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind, and sympathetic to those who engage in homosexual behavior, despite disagreements with reference to the propriety of the conduct. Gay people can and do attend church services, and are included in church activities insofar as their personal compliance with worthiness standards allows. The Church has emphasized repeatedly that homosexual proclivities or temptations themselves are not sinful. Gay couples even attend church as couples, and the congregation is expected to be warm and non-judgmental. See https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ .
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm and non-judgmental". From the FAQ accessible via your link: Identifying as gay may mean you experience same-sex attraction but choose not to act on these feelings. Yes, and it might also mean that you experience same-sex attraction which is returned and which you choose to act on gleefully! This page is trying to sound non-judgmental, but it shows its true feelings when it says things like this, without allowing for the obvious alternative. And if you think the subtext isn't heard, guess again!

austenallred 10y ago

As an obviously-biased Mormon I'm not sure the conclusion follows. Certainly there are fantastical elements to my religion (as there are to all religions I know of), but we don't do what we do to compensate for that. We do what we do because we believe it.

redsummer 10y ago
Perhaps not to compensate, but to validate. You would never feel compelled to act in a certain way because the sky is blue, or because water is wet. But if you have a political or religious belief, however absurd, you feel a compulsion to act.
- austenallred 10y ago
  I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"
  - dorian-graph 10y ago
    You're missing a fundamental part so I'll add it in, but even so, it's still incredibly simplified so as to push a certain derogatory view. "I believe God wants me to do x because y therefore I do x because y and/or z"
    - redsummer 10y ago
      The y in that is the supernatural stuff - the story. I wouldn't go to see a movie if it didn't have a good story. I wouldn't go if it was just a list of facts. But that's what the dull modern atheists types want me to do in life.
      - dorian-graph 10y ago
        Funnily, my intent was to show that y was the dull stuff. Maybe another addition would be "I believe God wants me to do x because y, in the context of s, therefore I do x because y and/or z"? For example, take a thing Mormons are commonly known for—not drinking alcohol. It came about in what we call the 'word of wisdom' [1] [2]. s := The story part would be "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—" x := don't drink (and other health related things like eating meat sparingly) y := to be healthy in both body and mind/spirit z := I have faith (faith is effectively trust in someone who has shown that they're trustworthy) in God [1] https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng [2] https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng&old=true https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng&old=true

mythrwy 10y ago

To be fair PT Barnum types from thousands of years ago should be no more believable than PT Barnum types from 150 years ago.

redsummer 10y ago
True, but history produces a variety of personalities so a longer established religion will be more rounded. Schools of thought will generate opposing schools of thought etc. Like if you throw a tennis ball hard into a circular room it will end up going pretty much everywhere.

dorian-graph 10y ago

> The Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic What you're saying goes against the premise of the church—it being the ancient religion that was lost, and then restored, hence ".. in latter days". In fact, this pattern is common throughout scripture (Bible, Book of Mormon, etc.) where the people fall into what's called apostasy, things are lost, and then it's returned again. Someone else has already commented on your line about the absurdity, otherwise I would've said something similar.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hackuser 10y ago

> Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic - it's made up by a couple of PT Barnum types This would be outrageous to day about Jews, Lutherans, Muslims ... Mormons are not a special case. At the least, if criticizing other people's religion, offer something that demonstrates thought and contributes value, not just a cheap insult, and show some respect. Mormon's origin stories are no more unbelievable than other religions', full of angels, the voice of God, ascensions to heaven, reincarnation, etc. People just give more the other stories more leeway because they are the status quo. > Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. This is a great example of a common problem of political dialog and ideas. It's not real. Which "people" does this refer to, specifically? Can you name one? Can you cite specific statements by a popular group that corroborates what you are saying? These "people" created in the mind of the commenter, who then criticizes figments of his/her own imagination. I'm not saying that to pick on the commenter, but to point out that everyone has the tendency of creating somewhat paranoid, imaginary representations of the "other" - 100% dogmatic adherents to political ideologies, hyperbolic, incorporating all the bad things we hear about these other people. Real people are complex (and not even internally consistent), generally good willed toward you, and don't object to things like high marriage rates and kids with parents.