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Yea i fully understand that sentiment Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so domin

Yea i fully understand that sentiment Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here)

jschwartzi 10y ago
I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. They can be taught to perform tasks, and some of them have people skills that are good enough that they can lead teams, but they will never be computer programmers unless we commit as a society to put in decades of work per person. These are men who would be farm labor in another era, except that we mechanized all of that. Or they might be steel workers in another era, except that we mechanized all of that and then shipped it overseas. Many of them are tradesmen or warehouse workers and will be mechanized out of a job in the coming decades. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, but it's that as a society we no longer have a productive use for them. Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades, and I think that that transition will be hard for us as a society. The only other alternative I can think of involves us colonizing the Moon or Mars, because those are the kinds of places where men like these shine.
- Jimmy 10y ago
  >Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades While the wives do... what? Work white-collar jobs? We've just been talking about how hard it is for a certain subsection of men to get these jobs, so why are their wives able to fair better? Is it because women are smarter than men? Some other factor?
  - throw123456788 10y ago
    > why are their wives able to fair better It's right there in his comment: > I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. Women are actually pretty good at that. I say this as a man who really struggles with it, with a few friends that have the same issue.
    - Jimmy 10y ago
      >Women are actually pretty good at that. But are they just flat out better at it than men? What data do you have to support that assertion? Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men. You may struggle with certain things, but there are many men who don't. And of course there are plenty of women who struggle with CS as well.
      - throw123456788 10y ago
        > What data do you have to support that assertion? TFA. The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That very dynamic would seem to suggest some underlying issue, and IMO the issue is that generally speaking, a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). Here[0] is an example article about the differences in academic behaviors between men and women. > Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men I'm trying to speak in aggregate, but I do concede that most of our profession is male. The entire population of our profession as a percentage of the workforce is rather small though[1], as compared to something much more accessible to the average person like being a truck driver[2] (which itself is going away sometime in the next 5-10 years, only exacerbating the problem being discussed here). [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-girls-get-better-grades-than-boys-do/380318/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-gi... [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/heavy-and-tractor-trailer-truck-drivers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/h...
- throw1233212323 10y ago
  Why is this comment string so far down the thread? You and rhapsodic are both hitting the nail on the head. I say this as another midwesterner born and raised in a blue collar area. I loved where I grew up, and (most) of the people I grew up with! Like you implied, I haven't seen ANYONE speaking to this issue, let alone any kind of solution to it.
rhapsodic 10y ago
>Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? I think you missed my main point, to wit, that in any given population, there will be a significant percentage for whom manual labor is their only viable means for doing productive, remunerative work. Consider that the median IQ is 100. [1] That means that half of US citizens (roughly speaking, since I don't know how that was arrived at) have an IQ below 100. So they're never going to be engineers or software developers or pharmacists. And, yes, there may be a cultural aspect as well, but if that were the only obstacle I would think it would be surmountable. These people have it hard enough with imported manufactured goods, automation, and soon, AI, reducing the demand for people of their ability level. And the Democratic party wants them to also compete with immigrants who are even more poor and more desperate than they are. > In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here) Another alternative is to recognize the fact that, while unrestricted free trade and immigration may improve certain metrics like GDP, and corporate profits, that not everyone automatically benefits from growth in those metrics. We could structure our immigration laws in a ways that do not further erode the already-shrinking piece of the pie that our citizens on the lower rungs of the achievement ladder are relying on. What might we call this new approach to governing our country? Perhaps there's something catchy that would resonate with those voters. Perhaps something like "America First!" Oh wait, never mind, Chris Matthews on MSNBC said that phrase is "Hitlerian". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
- throw1233212323 10y ago
  Dude, spot on comment. Seriously. I've commented elsewhere in the thread that the 'education for all' theory, while very good and worth pursuing for those interested, actually has a subtext: "Education for all (who are able to be educated)" What about everyone else?
- soundwave106 10y ago
  On the flip side, free trade, immigration, and automation lower the price of consumer goods. Ultimately, this is the question: people may have "had it" with automation and AI, but are they willing to pay for a product built with more expensive labor? Because in the end, price rules in many people's minds when it comes to the choice of goods they buy. And businesses know this. You could restrict immigration to zero in my opinion, and this still would be a problem. Most factory floors are heavily automated. It's kind of like many farm crops: it would be foolhardy (more costly, less reliable) to force farmers to replace the single combine with huge amounts of human labor. Likewise, you're not going to replace the machines on the factory floor with people unless you accept a much higher price for the consumer. Heck, you could eliminate all imports, and manufacturing floors still would heavily use machines. That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. But 1950s style industrial work is not coming back, immigrants or not. Eliminating the immigrants would only open up the opportunity for certain low-salary manual labor positions. While that might add jobs, it won't be the same kind of jobs their fathers had.

jschwartzi 10y ago

I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. They can be taught to perform tasks, and some of them have people skills that are good enough that they can lead teams, but they will never be computer programmers unless we commit as a society to put in decades of work per person. These are men who would be farm labor in another era, except that we mechanized all of that. Or they might be steel workers in another era, except that we mechanized all of that and then shipped it overseas. Many of them are tradesmen or warehouse workers and will be mechanized out of a job in the coming decades. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, but it's that as a society we no longer have a productive use for them. Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades, and I think that that transition will be hard for us as a society. The only other alternative I can think of involves us colonizing the Moon or Mars, because those are the kinds of places where men like these shine.

Jimmy 10y ago
>Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades While the wives do... what? Work white-collar jobs? We've just been talking about how hard it is for a certain subsection of men to get these jobs, so why are their wives able to fair better? Is it because women are smarter than men? Some other factor?
- throw123456788 10y ago
  > why are their wives able to fair better It's right there in his comment: > I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. Women are actually pretty good at that. I say this as a man who really struggles with it, with a few friends that have the same issue.
  - Jimmy 10y ago
    >Women are actually pretty good at that. But are they just flat out better at it than men? What data do you have to support that assertion? Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men. You may struggle with certain things, but there are many men who don't. And of course there are plenty of women who struggle with CS as well.
    - throw123456788 10y ago
      > What data do you have to support that assertion? TFA. The generational declining male labor participation rate. The economy is being geared towards knowledge work and has been going that way for some time, yet men are participating less, and women are participating more. That very dynamic would seem to suggest some underlying issue, and IMO the issue is that generally speaking, a large portion of our society is incapable of doing the type of work the economy is geared towards and rewards most heavily (outside of finance). Here[0] is an example article about the differences in academic behaviors between men and women. > Remember that the majority of programmers are men, and the majority of STEM faculty at research institutions are men I'm trying to speak in aggregate, but I do concede that most of our profession is male. The entire population of our profession as a percentage of the workforce is rather small though[1], as compared to something much more accessible to the average person like being a truck driver[2] (which itself is going away sometime in the next 5-10 years, only exacerbating the problem being discussed here). [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-girls-get-better-grades-than-boys-do/380318/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/why-gi... [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/heavy-and-tractor-trailer-truck-drivers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/h...
throw1233212323 10y ago
Why is this comment string so far down the thread? You and rhapsodic are both hitting the nail on the head. I say this as another midwesterner born and raised in a blue collar area. I loved where I grew up, and (most) of the people I grew up with! Like you implied, I haven't seen ANYONE speaking to this issue, let alone any kind of solution to it.

rhapsodic 10y ago

>Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? I think you missed my main point, to wit, that in any given population, there will be a significant percentage for whom manual labor is their only viable means for doing productive, remunerative work. Consider that the median IQ is 100. [1] That means that half of US citizens (roughly speaking, since I don't know how that was arrived at) have an IQ below 100. So they're never going to be engineers or software developers or pharmacists. And, yes, there may be a cultural aspect as well, but if that were the only obstacle I would think it would be surmountable. These people have it hard enough with imported manufactured goods, automation, and soon, AI, reducing the demand for people of their ability level. And the Democratic party wants them to also compete with immigrants who are even more poor and more desperate than they are. > In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here) Another alternative is to recognize the fact that, while unrestricted free trade and immigration may improve certain metrics like GDP, and corporate profits, that not everyone automatically benefits from growth in those metrics. We could structure our immigration laws in a ways that do not further erode the already-shrinking piece of the pie that our citizens on the lower rungs of the achievement ladder are relying on. What might we call this new approach to governing our country? Perhaps there's something catchy that would resonate with those voters. Perhaps something like "America First!" Oh wait, never mind, Chris Matthews on MSNBC said that phrase is "Hitlerian". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification

throw1233212323 10y ago
Dude, spot on comment. Seriously. I've commented elsewhere in the thread that the 'education for all' theory, while very good and worth pursuing for those interested, actually has a subtext: "Education for all (who are able to be educated)" What about everyone else?
soundwave106 10y ago
On the flip side, free trade, immigration, and automation lower the price of consumer goods. Ultimately, this is the question: people may have "had it" with automation and AI, but are they willing to pay for a product built with more expensive labor? Because in the end, price rules in many people's minds when it comes to the choice of goods they buy. And businesses know this. You could restrict immigration to zero in my opinion, and this still would be a problem. Most factory floors are heavily automated. It's kind of like many farm crops: it would be foolhardy (more costly, less reliable) to force farmers to replace the single combine with huge amounts of human labor. Likewise, you're not going to replace the machines on the factory floor with people unless you accept a much higher price for the consumer. Heck, you could eliminate all imports, and manufacturing floors still would heavily use machines. That's why ultimately, it is difficult for me to envision a path for many of these people that does not involve some sort of education, training, or similar. It doesn't have to be STEM type work. But 1950s style industrial work is not coming back, immigrants or not. Eliminating the immigrants would only open up the opportunity for certain low-salary manual labor positions. While that might add jobs, it won't be the same kind of jobs their fathers had.