5 ms·

Yes this stood out to me as well. I don't understand the rationale behind that argument. College attendance is at an all time high. Why is University not produc

Yes this stood out to me as well. I don't understand the rationale behind that argument. College attendance is at an all time high. Why is University not producing the thing that "smart immigrants" seem to have that U.S. graduates do not?

dmoy 10y ago
We get to pick our majors in Uni here, so many are free to study things that don't train them in useful employment areas at all. In e.g. China you don't get much of a choice (unless you test ridiculously well). Idk that could be part of it.
FT_intern 10y ago
Because work ethic is not taught in high school or university (or in American families/society). And many 3rd (or higher) generation Americans have an unhealthy sense of entitlement. Many American teens are told that they are able to become and do whatever they want and that money, knowledge, education and job stability have very little utility for happiness. At age 18, "whatever they want" means partying while gaining large amounts of debt and barely passing through a ridiculously easy, but useless liberal arts major.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  Our "entitlement" doesn't come from nothing. Wages have been dropping significantly since the recession. The loyalty that corporations show is lower than ever. All the jobs are either being outsourced or concentrated to a handful of urban centers in the country. Cost of living is going up every year, especially in housing. We're required to get $40-$100k in debt just to start our careers. All this is happening when supposedly our economy is doing better than ever. Then we hear constantly about how we're lazy, entitled, and should just work more. I'll tell you, I'm one of those "lazy" millennials, but I'm not lazy. I'm just not willing to be exploited just so corporations can profit more and more off of my labor. Why should I care about my work when it's obvious that it doesn't care about me?
exclusiv 10y ago
Agreed. We should be investing in our own people and figuring out why our system isn't producing especially in light of the fact that we spend more than most countries on education. I'm guessing it's a combination of things: - Recent grads from other countries are hungrier so they are constantly learning and have a plan. Many here get a sense of entitlement from graduating college because their parents came from an era where going to college was a near guarantee of a good job. Now it means very little as it's a requirement for most people. - Our universities leave our students with a lot of debt which can be overwhelming. Rather than take a good opportunity with an internship, they're wanting high salaries straight out of college. They're very short-sighted and entitled. When I hire - I'm not going to overpay because you took on a lot of debt. Most small businesses can't afford to hire at what these grads want. I'm personally hiring people with no formal experience in technology with good personalities and a hunger to learn and teaching them. - Universities are failing because most don't have the professors and curriculum yet to handle the needs of our evolving economy. I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school, so I taught myself instead of going to classes and ran an ecommerce store in 01 when margins online still existed. My brother is much younger than me and his school has these programs so that's a good thing. A college education is definitely oversold and has been for some time. It used to be an incredible value. As with most things, I think we'll see a return to the older times and apprenticeships will emerge as a competing alternative. I know General Assembly offers apprenticeships where you pay something like $3500/mo for a boot camp graduate and they work on-site for 4 days and spend Friday learning at GA. I haven't tried it yet because I've been hiring in-network but I think that's a pretty compelling offering for both the student and the company hiring.
- Kephael 10y ago
  > - Universities are failing because most don't have the professors and curriculum yet to handle the needs of our evolving economy. I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school, so I taught myself instead of going to classes and ran an ecommerce store in 01 when margins online still existed. My brother is much younger than me and his school has these programs so that's a good thing. Universities know what they should be teaching in order for their graduates to be successful in the workforce and in graduate studies. Lesser schools simply dumb down the curriculum to pad their graduation rates. In the case of software jobs, good companies want new graduates with solid fundamentals. There are certainly professors who are clueless but I doubt it's the tenured/tenure track faculty in top STEM departments. >A college education is definitely oversold and has been for some time. It used to be an incredible value. I agree with you on this, most schools are simply not worth attending. > I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school This is too vocational for a school to teach. Web development frameworks are easy enough to learn on your own and intellectually they are not challenging. Schools must concentrate on the fundamentals and not on ephemeral technologies. >As with most things, I think we'll see a return to the older times and apprenticeships will emerge as a competing alternative. I'd say it's more likely software hiring turns into what you see in industries where too many people want to get in such as investment banking, big law, and consulting where employers simply recruit from certain schools. My Summer software engineering internship at a Fortune 500, non-tech company is composed roughly of 75% of students from reputable or name brand schools. Bay area software companies are probably even a greater percentage.
VLM 10y ago
Because they skill they're looking for is "being under 30". Therefore being cheap to pay, cheap to insure, simple ageism in general, being extremely gullible WRT labor vs reward, being easily manipulable, etc. Oddly enough no educational program helps with those already affected, retraining program participants have even been observed to fall behind about one day per 24 hours no matter how intensive the training program. If they would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps like I do then they'd all look 29 for the rest of their lives, I mean can't all macroeconomic problems be solved by lecturing people to all do microeconomic improvements upon themselves, of course if they did that and no one were over age 29, then ageism would simply result in no one appearing to be over 28 ever being employed again, LOL.
- jackvalentine 10y ago
  > Oddly enough no educational program helps with those already affected, retraining program participants have even been observed to fall behind about one day per 24 hours no matter how intensive the training program. I don't understand this, do you mind explaining it to me?
  - barry-cotter 10y ago
    It's a joke. He's saying no educational programme will make you as stupid, naive and exploitable as you were in your twenties. One day = 24 hours
    - stan_rogers 10y ago
      It's even simpler than that: they're already too old (over 30), and they continue to age at a one day per day rate no matter how well they're trained. It is possible to train oneself to be as stupid, naive and exploitable as necessary, but as long as the assumptions about who has those desirable qualities can be based on age, that training is unlikely to do you much good.
WalterBright 10y ago
Unfortunately, having a college degree does not make one a skilled tech worker. Many students attend college for reasons other than being interested in tech - they want to make money, they want to enjoy being young before entering the workforce, people told them that going to college is the thing to do. You can tell these at college - they take the easiest classes, they do as little as possible, they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating, they complain about the college rather than taking advantage of the opportunities there, and they avoid math as much as possible. When they graduate, they are only marginally employable, and offering more training won't help.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- somestag 10y ago
  > ... they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating ... This is kind of off-topic and nitpicky of me, but it's something that's been on my mind recently, so I'll go ahead anyway: For many things in life, condemnations are much easier to make than defenses, but that doesn't mean the defense is without merit. I once took an upper-level math class where the instructor told us that we were not allowed to receive any help from people who were not currently enrolled in, or administering, the course. I said "screw that" and routinely asked my friend at another university, who had taken a similar course, for advice and clarifications on the subject matter and assignments. As a result I did very well in the course, particularly on the exams (where of course I had no one helping me). This was clearly cheating, but to fully justify why I felt the rule was unfair, and why I felt it was morally permissible to cheat, would have required a full exposition of my beliefs on the purpose of education and fairness and personal responsibility. Meanwhile, anyone could just say to me, "that's against the rules, it's cheating, and you're putting the people who don't cheat at a disadvantage." Much easier to condemn than to defend. This is really just a nitpick, though, and I agree with your overall point.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    I remember a quote from a scifi book years ago, that a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. They'd be scientists/engineers for free if they could. Ironically, this often results in them being very well paid :-) It reminds me of the fighter pilots who say "I can't believe they actually PAY me to fly these things!" There's always a shortage of those kinds of people.
acdha 10y ago
I think some of your assumptions merit more consideration, too: college attendance is higher but it's still significantly below the theoretical maximum – does that mean that the in-demand degrees require interests/talents which simply aren't more common in the general population or that there's a problem with some combination of being prepared for those majors, supporting students all the way through graduation, or having certain career paths be open and inviting to the entire prospective student population? Based on the number of students who either never attend or fail to graduate due to financial reasons I think most of this could be by our society choosing not to invest in high-quality education and other social support rather than some intrinsic failure of the higher-education system.

dmoy 10y ago

We get to pick our majors in Uni here, so many are free to study things that don't train them in useful employment areas at all. In e.g. China you don't get much of a choice (unless you test ridiculously well). Idk that could be part of it.

FT_intern 10y ago

Because work ethic is not taught in high school or university (or in American families/society). And many 3rd (or higher) generation Americans have an unhealthy sense of entitlement. Many American teens are told that they are able to become and do whatever they want and that money, knowledge, education and job stability have very little utility for happiness. At age 18, "whatever they want" means partying while gaining large amounts of debt and barely passing through a ridiculously easy, but useless liberal arts major.

dukeluke 10y ago
Our "entitlement" doesn't come from nothing. Wages have been dropping significantly since the recession. The loyalty that corporations show is lower than ever. All the jobs are either being outsourced or concentrated to a handful of urban centers in the country. Cost of living is going up every year, especially in housing. We're required to get $40-$100k in debt just to start our careers. All this is happening when supposedly our economy is doing better than ever. Then we hear constantly about how we're lazy, entitled, and should just work more. I'll tell you, I'm one of those "lazy" millennials, but I'm not lazy. I'm just not willing to be exploited just so corporations can profit more and more off of my labor. Why should I care about my work when it's obvious that it doesn't care about me?

exclusiv 10y ago

Agreed. We should be investing in our own people and figuring out why our system isn't producing especially in light of the fact that we spend more than most countries on education. I'm guessing it's a combination of things: - Recent grads from other countries are hungrier so they are constantly learning and have a plan. Many here get a sense of entitlement from graduating college because their parents came from an era where going to college was a near guarantee of a good job. Now it means very little as it's a requirement for most people. - Our universities leave our students with a lot of debt which can be overwhelming. Rather than take a good opportunity with an internship, they're wanting high salaries straight out of college. They're very short-sighted and entitled. When I hire - I'm not going to overpay because you took on a lot of debt. Most small businesses can't afford to hire at what these grads want. I'm personally hiring people with no formal experience in technology with good personalities and a hunger to learn and teaching them. - Universities are failing because most don't have the professors and curriculum yet to handle the needs of our evolving economy. I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school, so I taught myself instead of going to classes and ran an ecommerce store in 01 when margins online still existed. My brother is much younger than me and his school has these programs so that's a good thing. A college education is definitely oversold and has been for some time. It used to be an incredible value. As with most things, I think we'll see a return to the older times and apprenticeships will emerge as a competing alternative. I know General Assembly offers apprenticeships where you pay something like $3500/mo for a boot camp graduate and they work on-site for 4 days and spend Friday learning at GA. I haven't tried it yet because I've been hiring in-network but I think that's a pretty compelling offering for both the student and the company hiring.

Kephael 10y ago
> - Universities are failing because most don't have the professors and curriculum yet to handle the needs of our evolving economy. I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school, so I taught myself instead of going to classes and ran an ecommerce store in 01 when margins online still existed. My brother is much younger than me and his school has these programs so that's a good thing. Universities know what they should be teaching in order for their graduates to be successful in the workforce and in graduate studies. Lesser schools simply dumb down the curriculum to pad their graduation rates. In the case of software jobs, good companies want new graduates with solid fundamentals. There are certainly professors who are clueless but I doubt it's the tenured/tenure track faculty in top STEM departments. >A college education is definitely oversold and has been for some time. It used to be an incredible value. I agree with you on this, most schools are simply not worth attending. > I've always been interested in the web but they didn't teach any web development or technology when I was at school This is too vocational for a school to teach. Web development frameworks are easy enough to learn on your own and intellectually they are not challenging. Schools must concentrate on the fundamentals and not on ephemeral technologies. >As with most things, I think we'll see a return to the older times and apprenticeships will emerge as a competing alternative. I'd say it's more likely software hiring turns into what you see in industries where too many people want to get in such as investment banking, big law, and consulting where employers simply recruit from certain schools. My Summer software engineering internship at a Fortune 500, non-tech company is composed roughly of 75% of students from reputable or name brand schools. Bay area software companies are probably even a greater percentage.

VLM 10y ago

Because they skill they're looking for is "being under 30". Therefore being cheap to pay, cheap to insure, simple ageism in general, being extremely gullible WRT labor vs reward, being easily manipulable, etc. Oddly enough no educational program helps with those already affected, retraining program participants have even been observed to fall behind about one day per 24 hours no matter how intensive the training program. If they would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps like I do then they'd all look 29 for the rest of their lives, I mean can't all macroeconomic problems be solved by lecturing people to all do microeconomic improvements upon themselves, of course if they did that and no one were over age 29, then ageism would simply result in no one appearing to be over 28 ever being employed again, LOL.

jackvalentine 10y ago
> Oddly enough no educational program helps with those already affected, retraining program participants have even been observed to fall behind about one day per 24 hours no matter how intensive the training program. I don't understand this, do you mind explaining it to me?
- barry-cotter 10y ago
  It's a joke. He's saying no educational programme will make you as stupid, naive and exploitable as you were in your twenties. One day = 24 hours
  - stan_rogers 10y ago
    It's even simpler than that: they're already too old (over 30), and they continue to age at a one day per day rate no matter how well they're trained. It is possible to train oneself to be as stupid, naive and exploitable as necessary, but as long as the assumptions about who has those desirable qualities can be based on age, that training is unlikely to do you much good.

WalterBright 10y ago

Unfortunately, having a college degree does not make one a skilled tech worker. Many students attend college for reasons other than being interested in tech - they want to make money, they want to enjoy being young before entering the workforce, people told them that going to college is the thing to do. You can tell these at college - they take the easiest classes, they do as little as possible, they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating, they complain about the college rather than taking advantage of the opportunities there, and they avoid math as much as possible. When they graduate, they are only marginally employable, and offering more training won't help.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
somestag 10y ago
> ... they'll give you long-winded explanations justifying cheating ... This is kind of off-topic and nitpicky of me, but it's something that's been on my mind recently, so I'll go ahead anyway: For many things in life, condemnations are much easier to make than defenses, but that doesn't mean the defense is without merit. I once took an upper-level math class where the instructor told us that we were not allowed to receive any help from people who were not currently enrolled in, or administering, the course. I said "screw that" and routinely asked my friend at another university, who had taken a similar course, for advice and clarifications on the subject matter and assignments. As a result I did very well in the course, particularly on the exams (where of course I had no one helping me). This was clearly cheating, but to fully justify why I felt the rule was unfair, and why I felt it was morally permissible to cheat, would have required a full exposition of my beliefs on the purpose of education and fairness and personal responsibility. Meanwhile, anyone could just say to me, "that's against the rules, it's cheating, and you're putting the people who don't cheat at a disadvantage." Much easier to condemn than to defend. This is really just a nitpick, though, and I agree with your overall point.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  I remember a quote from a scifi book years ago, that a real scientist was one who would peer fearlessly into the gates of hell if he thought he'd learn something about his field. You can't just train/encourage people into that. They are born that way. They'd be scientists/engineers for free if they could. Ironically, this often results in them being very well paid :-) It reminds me of the fighter pilots who say "I can't believe they actually PAY me to fly these things!" There's always a shortage of those kinds of people.

acdha 10y ago

I think some of your assumptions merit more consideration, too: college attendance is higher but it's still significantly below the theoretical maximum – does that mean that the in-demand degrees require interests/talents which simply aren't more common in the general population or that there's a problem with some combination of being prepared for those majors, supporting students all the way through graduation, or having certain career paths be open and inviting to the entire prospective student population? Based on the number of students who either never attend or fail to graduate due to financial reasons I think most of this could be by our society choosing not to invest in high-quality education and other social support rather than some intrinsic failure of the higher-education system.