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agree w/ your take on the democrats being not optimally positioned for this issue but honest Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solut

agree w/ your take on the democrats being not optimally positioned for this issue but honest Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solution to this problem be better education? that way they don't have to compete for the same lowskill jobs.

fuhrerdubs 10y ago
What is the point of "education" when there are no jobs? Businesses have shown that they will outsource the American worker on a whim if they feel it's good for "profitability". The cancer in this country is bad American leadership with a loot everything mentality.
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses
  - rhapsodic 10y ago
    > education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses And in the US, it has also created a lot of people who are capable of neither, but are saddled with crushing student loan debt.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  The big firms and employers with US HQs are global. They have a duty to their shareholders so of course they will outsource. Hopefully we'll get some policies in place to prevent these large firms from stashing cash overseas and avoiding taxes. Small firms account for 55% of all jobs and 66% of new jobs and 54% of all US sales [1]. Leadership can do a better job of incentivizing entrepreneurs to start new businesses and to help SMBs hire more people. Requiring health care and rising costs coupled with a highly indebted workforce makes it more difficult for both parties. Education can also help prepare more entrepreneurs. [1] https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energy-efficiency/sustainable-business-practices/small-business-trends https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energ...
rhapsodic 10y ago
> Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solution to this problem be better education? I really don't think so, and here's why: I grew up in a steel town in the rust belt that was thriving up until the 1980s. Among my peers, almost everyone's father was gainfully employed, but relatively few were doing white-collar type work. (There were plenty of those types in the region, they just didn't live in the same neighborhoods where I lived.) So the people discussed in this article are not some abstract sociological concept to me, they are where I came from. Now I live in a neighborhood and school district that is predominantly white-collar with aspirations of higher education for the children growing up there, but I still have strong ties and frequent contact with my old world. And, from my experience, I know there are many men who are simply not cut out to be "knowledge workers". I don't need an expert or a study to tell me that. These people saw their opportunities and incomes shrink (or disappear altogether) from an onslaught of imported manufactured goods. And now, they see their already shrunken piece of the pie being taken by immigrants. The Democrats tell them, "college for everyone, go to school and be a computer progammer!" To which they reply, "Screw you, we're voting for Donald Trump. He cares more about our interests than the plight of poor Mexicans!" (And then they turn on the TV and see some Democratic politician talking about how hateful and racist they are.)
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  Yea i fully understand that sentiment Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here)
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. They can be taught to perform tasks, and some of them have people skills that are good enough that they can lead teams, but they will never be computer programmers unless we commit as a society to put in decades of work per person. These are men who would be farm labor in another era, except that we mechanized all of that. Or they might be steel workers in another era, except that we mechanized all of that and then shipped it overseas. Many of them are tradesmen or warehouse workers and will be mechanized out of a job in the coming decades. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, but it's that as a society we no longer have a productive use for them. Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades, and I think that that transition will be hard for us as a society. The only other alternative I can think of involves us colonizing the Moon or Mars, because those are the kinds of places where men like these shine.

fuhrerdubs 10y ago

What is the point of "education" when there are no jobs? Businesses have shown that they will outsource the American worker on a whim if they feel it's good for "profitability". The cancer in this country is bad American leadership with a loot everything mentality.

andreasklinger 10y ago
education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses
- rhapsodic 10y ago
  > education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses And in the US, it has also created a lot of people who are capable of neither, but are saddled with crushing student loan debt.
exclusiv 10y ago
The big firms and employers with US HQs are global. They have a duty to their shareholders so of course they will outsource. Hopefully we'll get some policies in place to prevent these large firms from stashing cash overseas and avoiding taxes. Small firms account for 55% of all jobs and 66% of new jobs and 54% of all US sales [1]. Leadership can do a better job of incentivizing entrepreneurs to start new businesses and to help SMBs hire more people. Requiring health care and rising costs coupled with a highly indebted workforce makes it more difficult for both parties. Education can also help prepare more entrepreneurs. [1] https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energy-efficiency/sustainable-business-practices/small-business-trends https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energ...

rhapsodic 10y ago

> Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solution to this problem be better education? I really don't think so, and here's why: I grew up in a steel town in the rust belt that was thriving up until the 1980s. Among my peers, almost everyone's father was gainfully employed, but relatively few were doing white-collar type work. (There were plenty of those types in the region, they just didn't live in the same neighborhoods where I lived.) So the people discussed in this article are not some abstract sociological concept to me, they are where I came from. Now I live in a neighborhood and school district that is predominantly white-collar with aspirations of higher education for the children growing up there, but I still have strong ties and frequent contact with my old world. And, from my experience, I know there are many men who are simply not cut out to be "knowledge workers". I don't need an expert or a study to tell me that. These people saw their opportunities and incomes shrink (or disappear altogether) from an onslaught of imported manufactured goods. And now, they see their already shrunken piece of the pie being taken by immigrants. The Democrats tell them, "college for everyone, go to school and be a computer progammer!" To which they reply, "Screw you, we're voting for Donald Trump. He cares more about our interests than the plight of poor Mexicans!" (And then they turn on the TV and see some Democratic politician talking about how hateful and racist they are.)

andreasklinger 10y ago
Yea i fully understand that sentiment Ok to paraphrase and understand your main point: The blue-collar attitude is part of the local culture b/c it's so dominant? In your pov: What paths exist other than showing and creating other possible alternatives? Personally i can't think of any other way than high quality education for the general population. (but obviously super biased here)
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  I have a lot of blue collar friends, and I think the point he's really making is that there are a lot of men who aren't cut out for higher education or technical school. It's not that they're not capable people, but it's that they think very concretely and it's difficult for them to grasp higher education because of all of the abstractions. They can be taught to perform tasks, and some of them have people skills that are good enough that they can lead teams, but they will never be computer programmers unless we commit as a society to put in decades of work per person. These are men who would be farm labor in another era, except that we mechanized all of that. Or they might be steel workers in another era, except that we mechanized all of that and then shipped it overseas. Many of them are tradesmen or warehouse workers and will be mechanized out of a job in the coming decades. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, but it's that as a society we no longer have a productive use for them. Honestly, I think a lot of them will become more involved in child care than their wives over the coming decades, and I think that that transition will be hard for us as a society. The only other alternative I can think of involves us colonizing the Moon or Mars, because those are the kinds of places where men like these shine.