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I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited

I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited flood of low-skilled, poorly-educated immigrants, legal or otherwise, into the US. Yet the Democratic party is staunchly opposed to any measures the might stem this flow. Instead, they lecture and name-call one of their former major constituencies, working-class males, who are the big losers in this equation.

DenisM 10y ago
>poorly-educated immigrants If you are alluding to Mexicans, they will just up and go home. They are here to provide for their families, if they can't do that from here they might as well join their loved ones back in the old country. Here's some supporting evidence to my claim: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-...
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  afair mexican immigration is net negative - correct?
  - Filligree 10y ago
    Has been for a while. It may be more negative now.
Bahamut 10y ago
While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. A lot of the disconnect here is lack of empathy on both sides of the fence, but generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others. There is some merit to what social conservatives say in that traditional white male masculinity is changing in American society. Ultimately, I view the changes as a good thing, but for those not exposed to a sphere of influence close to them where other acceptable alternatives are promoted by people they trust, they see a void in their lives that are not adequately filled. This is very much a social problem. I don't know what the solution is - this is merely observations I have had in my interactions on both sides of the fence.
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  > those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. The difference is the tendency - if this is downward future looks bleak even if "objectively" your life is better than others
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    > people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. And how much others have and they have.
- rhapsodic 10y ago
  >While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. I said "working-class males", not "white men", but your overall point is correct. The problem is, the Democratic party places a higher priority on helping the disadvantaged and downtrodden citizens of other countries over the ones in the US. The fact that low-skilled immigrants are taking jobs that the "Men Without Work" who are US citizens could do is apparently of no concern to them. Nor is the fact that an unlimited supply of low-skilled labor will drive down the cost of low-skilled labor in the US, and hence, the standard of living for those citizens who are not cut out for white-collar work.
- belorn 10y ago
  > generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others People mostly only see what they have now compared to what others have in their social sphere, as it translates to social ranking. When people talk about "better opportunities" it lacks understanding of just what the social sphere encompass. For example, there was a study in wage differences done in Goteborg (Sweden) which found that in the age group below 25, women generally earned more than men for the same job and education. Between 25-35 there was no wage differences, and above 35 wages slowly started to favor men with the higher differences when people reach over 50. If we then count the number of years people stay in the work force we can easily see that 35+ is significant larger than 25 and under, but is it fair (and empathic) to call it an privilege for young men that old men at 50+ earn so much more money than women over 50? The Democratic Party and the left movement in general could start to switch rhetoric towards individual needs and disadvantages rather than generalizations of groups. It would still be the same politics but it would include everyone who at some point in life, location, (or any other qualification) becomes disadvantaged compares to others in their social sphere. Young white men without work is their voter group if they just stopped generalizing them into the privileged rather than the disadvantaged.
andreasklinger 10y ago
agree w/ your take on the democrats being not optimally positioned for this issue but honest Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solution to this problem be better education? that way they don't have to compete for the same lowskill jobs.
- fuhrerdubs 10y ago
  What is the point of "education" when there are no jobs? Businesses have shown that they will outsource the American worker on a whim if they feel it's good for "profitability". The cancer in this country is bad American leadership with a loot everything mentality.
  - andreasklinger 10y ago
    education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses
    - rhapsodic 10y ago
      > education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses And in the US, it has also created a lot of people who are capable of neither, but are saddled with crushing student loan debt.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    The big firms and employers with US HQs are global. They have a duty to their shareholders so of course they will outsource. Hopefully we'll get some policies in place to prevent these large firms from stashing cash overseas and avoiding taxes. Small firms account for 55% of all jobs and 66% of new jobs and 54% of all US sales [1]. Leadership can do a better job of incentivizing entrepreneurs to start new businesses and to help SMBs hire more people. Requiring health care and rising costs coupled with a highly indebted workforce makes it more difficult for both parties. Education can also help prepare more entrepreneurs. [1] https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energy-efficiency/sustainable-business-practices/small-business-trends https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energ...
mmsimanga 10y ago
I know why political topics are banned. I too am going to go off topic. Skilled immigrant here, not in America. Could you guys (Americans) please get on with leading the world. This is a tough one. We leave our countries because conditions are not good (to generalise). The root cause is typically bad government. A dictator, corruption or just bad economic decisions. I do think the most sustainable solution is for all countries to attain a level of acceptable governance. Rooting out a dictator is hard, predicting what happens afterwards is harder. I still feel the world is giving dictators/corrupt governments an easy ride. Before you start saying all governments are corrupt. Again I have to generalise. There is a joke that does the rounds every once in while. I am paraphrasing. African and Asian guy study engineering in the west. Both become ministers of transport in their governments. African guy visits Asian minister. He notices the Asian minister has property and cars well beyond a government salary. He inquires, Asian takes him to window, points at modern highway, winks and says 10%. African guy nods knowingly. A couple years later the Asian guy visits his African counterpart. He too notices the African guy is rich beyond a government salary. African guy takes him to window points at highway, Asian looks hard but cannot see highway. Confused he looks at African guy and says he cannot see it, the African minister winks and says 90%. That is one of the reasons I am an immigrant.
colmvp 10y ago
Wasn't Hillary the one who was advocated for more access to education? I'm looking through her old website and there's a lot that could help the average American. I'm not one to truly believe that she could've created a miracle, but it seems to me that it's better to be sober and encourage retraining sets of people into new jobs related to say, solar energy engineering, instead of attempting to abolish regulations on dying industries (coal) or encourage more industries that are likely to have little job gains due to automation (e.g. manufacturing). Also, given the access to affordable, if not free online education and incredible resources online (photocopied textbooks, discussion forums, insightful blog posts, step-by-step instructions, high quality videos), I'm left somewhat less sympathetic to people who are completely unwilling to train themselves in other industries that are in demand, when my own dad who truly struggled in an extremely poor family in the middle of nowhere, Asia, and earned a scholarship to study medicine. I feel this odd dichotomy where some Americans have this 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' mentality (and consequently, dislike things that could benefit everyone like single payer health insurance), have access to an incredible environment(free resources online, no major civil war, clean water and food), and yet don't take advantage of it to its fullest.
- mjevans 10y ago
  I believe that 'the alternative' won because of an easier to digest and hope for message. 'Return the old jobs and ways.' People don't want to hear that the old blue-collar middle class jobs are dead. They don't want to believe that automation is what will exist if that manufacturing comes back. A strong focus should be on "a path to employment", your job is to follow the path and you are guaranteed to have a job. (Which may be following a different education path (retraining)) Welfare, which maybe those voters aren't even on anymore, is demoralizing. It's expecting different results from the same effort; applying for ever 'job' you can see, many of which are simply recruiting agencies and other black holes which won't even end up hiring someone.
  - rhapsodic 10y ago
    > A strong focus should be on "a path to employment", your job is to follow the path and you are guaranteed to have a job. (Which may be following a different education path (retraining)) Here's another idea. If the millions of people who are in the US illegally and working here were to be deported, and new ones stopped from coming in, it would open up jobs for the millions of American citizens with below-average IQs who are currently unable to find work. And it would increase the wages for all of the American citizens who do low-skilled work.
an_cap 10y ago
I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited flood of low-skilled, poorly-educated women, legal or otherwise, into the traditionally male US workforce. Yet the Democratic party is staunchly opposed to any measures the might stem this flow. Instead, they lecture and name-call one of their former major constituencies, working-class males, who are the big losers in this equation.
patrickg_zill 10y ago
There aren't any ideologies in USA politics, only interests. * Democratic party's actual donors, have the economic interest of having immigration legal or illegal, continue. * If you have unfortunately bought into the meme of Dems being kinder, examine how much wealthy Dem politicians actually donate to charity each year. I bet, as a percentage of income, it is less than you (HN reader) give. Republican party donors are split on the issue, while Trump's stated interest was on limiting it - thus the R political in-fighting going on and the relative Dem solidarity.
- nickthemagicman 10y ago
  Immigration is irrelevant. It's automation that's the real issue. And Pres Trump and his voters are living in some wistful golden era where Trump can bring back all of those magical jobs and "Make America Great Again" Scrotus Trump has barely addressed education policy which is the solution to allow people to join the new knowledge economy. As a matter of fact he put a completely incompetent person in charge of the dept of education. Trumps views are either dishonest, predatory, or completely delusional.. I'm not sure which. The implications of all of them are terrifying.
  - patrickg_zill 10y ago
    IMHO both immigration and automation are real issues. Agri-business wants cheap labor to avoid having to invest in automation for hard to harvest items - thus they benefit from illegal immigration, a source of cheap labor. If immigration is in fact cracked down upon, then they will invest in automation rather than paying the higher labor rates that will be in effect. The flaw in your reasoning is that not everyone has the actual ability to be a knowledge worker, as I think you would define it. By definition, only the top (25% ? 30%? 40%?) portion of the population can do it well. So what happens to the others?
    - nickthemagicman 10y ago
      Hey totally agree. That's the real true blue problem. What happens to the others indeed. UBI, New Deal workforce, we need something. I feel like these are real issues that need to be addressed along with education. Not stopping Bad Hombres and Muslims..

DenisM 10y ago

>poorly-educated immigrants If you are alluding to Mexicans, they will just up and go home. They are here to provide for their families, if they can't do that from here they might as well join their loved ones back in the old country. Here's some supporting evidence to my claim: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-...

andreasklinger 10y ago
afair mexican immigration is net negative - correct?
- Filligree 10y ago
  Has been for a while. It may be more negative now.

Bahamut 10y ago

While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. A lot of the disconnect here is lack of empathy on both sides of the fence, but generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others. There is some merit to what social conservatives say in that traditional white male masculinity is changing in American society. Ultimately, I view the changes as a good thing, but for those not exposed to a sphere of influence close to them where other acceptable alternatives are promoted by people they trust, they see a void in their lives that are not adequately filled. This is very much a social problem. I don't know what the solution is - this is merely observations I have had in my interactions on both sides of the fence.

andreasklinger 10y ago
> those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. The difference is the tendency - if this is downward future looks bleak even if "objectively" your life is better than others
- 77pt77 10y ago
  > people only see the delta - how much they used to have, how much they have now. And how much others have and they have.
rhapsodic 10y ago
>While this trend is likely one of many that has resulted in Trump's ascendence, the solution isn't necessarily for the Democratic Party shifting rhetoric on social issues - the stances that the Democratic Party generally espouses on social issues are meant to help those even more disadvantaged than white men. I said "working-class males", not "white men", but your overall point is correct. The problem is, the Democratic party places a higher priority on helping the disadvantaged and downtrodden citizens of other countries over the ones in the US. The fact that low-skilled immigrants are taking jobs that the "Men Without Work" who are US citizens could do is apparently of no concern to them. Nor is the fact that an unlimited supply of low-skilled labor will drive down the cost of low-skilled labor in the US, and hence, the standard of living for those citizens who are not cut out for white-collar work.
belorn 10y ago
> generally slanted more on those who don't understand how many more better opportunities they might have it than others People mostly only see what they have now compared to what others have in their social sphere, as it translates to social ranking. When people talk about "better opportunities" it lacks understanding of just what the social sphere encompass. For example, there was a study in wage differences done in Goteborg (Sweden) which found that in the age group below 25, women generally earned more than men for the same job and education. Between 25-35 there was no wage differences, and above 35 wages slowly started to favor men with the higher differences when people reach over 50. If we then count the number of years people stay in the work force we can easily see that 35+ is significant larger than 25 and under, but is it fair (and empathic) to call it an privilege for young men that old men at 50+ earn so much more money than women over 50? The Democratic Party and the left movement in general could start to switch rhetoric towards individual needs and disadvantages rather than generalizations of groups. It would still be the same politics but it would include everyone who at some point in life, location, (or any other qualification) becomes disadvantaged compares to others in their social sphere. Young white men without work is their voter group if they just stopped generalizing them into the privileged rather than the disadvantaged.

andreasklinger 10y ago

agree w/ your take on the democrats being not optimally positioned for this issue but honest Q: wouldn't (next to job market restrictions) an alternative solution to this problem be better education? that way they don't have to compete for the same lowskill jobs.

fuhrerdubs 10y ago
What is the point of "education" when there are no jobs? Businesses have shown that they will outsource the American worker on a whim if they feel it's good for "profitability". The cancer in this country is bad American leadership with a loot everything mentality.
- andreasklinger 10y ago
  education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses
  - rhapsodic 10y ago
    > education creates people who are capable of either create businesses or be useful for businesses And in the US, it has also created a lot of people who are capable of neither, but are saddled with crushing student loan debt.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  The big firms and employers with US HQs are global. They have a duty to their shareholders so of course they will outsource. Hopefully we'll get some policies in place to prevent these large firms from stashing cash overseas and avoiding taxes. Small firms account for 55% of all jobs and 66% of new jobs and 54% of all US sales [1]. Leadership can do a better job of incentivizing entrepreneurs to start new businesses and to help SMBs hire more people. Requiring health care and rising costs coupled with a highly indebted workforce makes it more difficult for both parties. Education can also help prepare more entrepreneurs. [1] https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energy-efficiency/sustainable-business-practices/small-business-trends https://www.sba.gov/managing-business/running-business/energ...

mmsimanga 10y ago

I know why political topics are banned. I too am going to go off topic. Skilled immigrant here, not in America. Could you guys (Americans) please get on with leading the world. This is a tough one. We leave our countries because conditions are not good (to generalise). The root cause is typically bad government. A dictator, corruption or just bad economic decisions. I do think the most sustainable solution is for all countries to attain a level of acceptable governance. Rooting out a dictator is hard, predicting what happens afterwards is harder. I still feel the world is giving dictators/corrupt governments an easy ride. Before you start saying all governments are corrupt. Again I have to generalise. There is a joke that does the rounds every once in while. I am paraphrasing. African and Asian guy study engineering in the west. Both become ministers of transport in their governments. African guy visits Asian minister. He notices the Asian minister has property and cars well beyond a government salary. He inquires, Asian takes him to window, points at modern highway, winks and says 10%. African guy nods knowingly. A couple years later the Asian guy visits his African counterpart. He too notices the African guy is rich beyond a government salary. African guy takes him to window points at highway, Asian looks hard but cannot see highway. Confused he looks at African guy and says he cannot see it, the African minister winks and says 90%. That is one of the reasons I am an immigrant.

colmvp 10y ago

Wasn't Hillary the one who was advocated for more access to education? I'm looking through her old website and there's a lot that could help the average American. I'm not one to truly believe that she could've created a miracle, but it seems to me that it's better to be sober and encourage retraining sets of people into new jobs related to say, solar energy engineering, instead of attempting to abolish regulations on dying industries (coal) or encourage more industries that are likely to have little job gains due to automation (e.g. manufacturing). Also, given the access to affordable, if not free online education and incredible resources online (photocopied textbooks, discussion forums, insightful blog posts, step-by-step instructions, high quality videos), I'm left somewhat less sympathetic to people who are completely unwilling to train themselves in other industries that are in demand, when my own dad who truly struggled in an extremely poor family in the middle of nowhere, Asia, and earned a scholarship to study medicine. I feel this odd dichotomy where some Americans have this 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' mentality (and consequently, dislike things that could benefit everyone like single payer health insurance), have access to an incredible environment(free resources online, no major civil war, clean water and food), and yet don't take advantage of it to its fullest.

mjevans 10y ago
I believe that 'the alternative' won because of an easier to digest and hope for message. 'Return the old jobs and ways.' People don't want to hear that the old blue-collar middle class jobs are dead. They don't want to believe that automation is what will exist if that manufacturing comes back. A strong focus should be on "a path to employment", your job is to follow the path and you are guaranteed to have a job. (Which may be following a different education path (retraining)) Welfare, which maybe those voters aren't even on anymore, is demoralizing. It's expecting different results from the same effort; applying for ever 'job' you can see, many of which are simply recruiting agencies and other black holes which won't even end up hiring someone.
- rhapsodic 10y ago
  > A strong focus should be on "a path to employment", your job is to follow the path and you are guaranteed to have a job. (Which may be following a different education path (retraining)) Here's another idea. If the millions of people who are in the US illegally and working here were to be deported, and new ones stopped from coming in, it would open up jobs for the millions of American citizens with below-average IQs who are currently unable to find work. And it would increase the wages for all of the American citizens who do low-skilled work.

an_cap 10y ago

I hate to be the one to say it, but this is a major contributing factor to the election of Donald Trump. This problem will only be exacerbated by an unlimited flood of low-skilled, poorly-educated women, legal or otherwise, into the traditionally male US workforce. Yet the Democratic party is staunchly opposed to any measures the might stem this flow. Instead, they lecture and name-call one of their former major constituencies, working-class males, who are the big losers in this equation.

patrickg_zill 10y ago

There aren't any ideologies in USA politics, only interests. * Democratic party's actual donors, have the economic interest of having immigration legal or illegal, continue. * If you have unfortunately bought into the meme of Dems being kinder, examine how much wealthy Dem politicians actually donate to charity each year. I bet, as a percentage of income, it is less than you (HN reader) give. Republican party donors are split on the issue, while Trump's stated interest was on limiting it - thus the R political in-fighting going on and the relative Dem solidarity.

nickthemagicman 10y ago
Immigration is irrelevant. It's automation that's the real issue. And Pres Trump and his voters are living in some wistful golden era where Trump can bring back all of those magical jobs and "Make America Great Again" Scrotus Trump has barely addressed education policy which is the solution to allow people to join the new knowledge economy. As a matter of fact he put a completely incompetent person in charge of the dept of education. Trumps views are either dishonest, predatory, or completely delusional.. I'm not sure which. The implications of all of them are terrifying.
- patrickg_zill 10y ago
  IMHO both immigration and automation are real issues. Agri-business wants cheap labor to avoid having to invest in automation for hard to harvest items - thus they benefit from illegal immigration, a source of cheap labor. If immigration is in fact cracked down upon, then they will invest in automation rather than paying the higher labor rates that will be in effect. The flaw in your reasoning is that not everyone has the actual ability to be a knowledge worker, as I think you would define it. By definition, only the top (25% ? 30%? 40%?) portion of the population can do it well. So what happens to the others?
  - nickthemagicman 10y ago
    Hey totally agree. That's the real true blue problem. What happens to the others indeed. UBI, New Deal workforce, we need something. I feel like these are real issues that need to be addressed along with education. Not stopping Bad Hombres and Muslims..