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This whole conversation reminds me of http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/. Claims like "

This whole conversation reminds me of http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/. Claims like "breakdown of feedback loops that keep the system stable" are basically just a long way of saying, "for reasons I don't understand." All things happen for reasons, and if it's on the bleeding edge of human understanding, or beyond current science, it'll likely be for reasons you don't understand. That does not mean that no entity will ever be able to understand. It's a little frustrating honestly. Don't people see that most things seem impossible until they aren't? Just two years ago a lot of people were quite confident that computers would never surpass humans at Go. https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/2wgukb/why_do_people_say_that_computer_go_will_never/ https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/2wgukb/why_do_people... This is one of dozens of such links you could find from that period. Much moreso ten years ago. I get that cancer is a horse of a different color, but come on. If you are confident that ANYTHING will be impossible in 200 years, besides things which are physically so . . . well, I just cannot agree.

dkarapetyan 10y ago
Stable/unstable/negative/positive feedback loops are technical terms in control theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback). I'm using those terms for specific reasons. I don't quite see what you're objecting too. Studying biology in the context of systems and control theory is a pretty well-trodden path (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle). Much of modern pharmaceutical research is actually about uncovering the chemical governing loops (another technical term) and affecting them to achieve positive outcomes. Cell division is an unstable positive loop that requires dampening with negative feedback loops at higher organization levels. When those negative feedback loops break down you get an unstable positive loop in the form of cancer. So you see how having cell division in a multi-cellular context can not be "cured" of cancer? You'd need to stop cell division and somehow figure out a way around entropy. Cells divide to renew/reset and shed accumulated environmental damage. So no matter what you do as long as you have a system organized around unstable processes like this you will always have a control problem when the negative control mechanisms stop working.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  As I've already pointed out to you, every biological system is a feedback loop in the sense you describe. Feedback loops are how you defecate, how you blink, how you move, and how you choose how much of what to consume. Feedback loops regulate the activity of your immune system and seal the holes in your skin when it's punctured. This doesn't distinguish cancer from anything else.

dkarapetyan 10y ago

Stable/unstable/negative/positive feedback loops are technical terms in control theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_feedback). I'm using those terms for specific reasons. I don't quite see what you're objecting too. Studying biology in the context of systems and control theory is a pretty well-trodden path (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle). Much of modern pharmaceutical research is actually about uncovering the chemical governing loops (another technical term) and affecting them to achieve positive outcomes. Cell division is an unstable positive loop that requires dampening with negative feedback loops at higher organization levels. When those negative feedback loops break down you get an unstable positive loop in the form of cancer. So you see how having cell division in a multi-cellular context can not be "cured" of cancer? You'd need to stop cell division and somehow figure out a way around entropy. Cells divide to renew/reset and shed accumulated environmental damage. So no matter what you do as long as you have a system organized around unstable processes like this you will always have a control problem when the negative control mechanisms stop working.

thaumasiotes 10y ago
As I've already pointed out to you, every biological system is a feedback loop in the sense you describe. Feedback loops are how you defecate, how you blink, how you move, and how you choose how much of what to consume. Feedback loops regulate the activity of your immune system and seal the holes in your skin when it's punctured. This doesn't distinguish cancer from anything else.