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The F35 is such a political football now that it's hard to even get solid information on whether it's good or bad. I never saw so much press on how great the F3

by ufmace 10y ago

The F35 is such a political football now that it's hard to even get solid information on whether it's good or bad. I never saw so much press on how great the F35 is as when Trump tweeted about maybe cancelling the program. If you don't like it, what exactly should be done with the program? Should it be cancelled? Do you still think it should be cancelled if that means maybe agreeing with Trump?

MegaButts 10y ago
> Do you still think it should be cancelled if that means maybe agreeing with Trump? This kind of argument is what's wrong with people voting the party line instead of voting with reason. Who the hell cares if Trump is right? Do what's right because you think it's right, not because of some petty political squabble. I do not pretend to understand how complicated such an expensive program is and what all the effects of cancelling it would be, but based on what little I know it seems like it would be a good idea to cancel the program and put the funds into something more productive.
- ufmace 10y ago
  I agree that things have gotten much too politicized along party lines. I'm rather bemused at how many people and organizations seem to be willing to switch sides on issues depending on which party or candidate is pushing which position. I don't think we're going to solve the problems we face by being completely for or against any party or politician. Like I said in a cousin comment, I'd be concerned about what the future would be for aircraft if we did cancel this program. I'd hope to see a plan for what we're going to do for the aircraft we need to buy and replace over the next 30 years before they moved forward with cancelling it.
EricBurnett 10y ago
I liked https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n07/daniel-soar/the-most-expensive-weapon-ever-built https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n07/daniel-soar/the-most-expensive... for its explanation of the political situation the F-35 is being built in, and the multinational ties that make it extremely difficult to cancel. TL;DR: The scope of this project (intentionally) means there are customers in 10s of countries, with most of them also contributing portions of the plans and so invested in the sales of the others. Just in the US alone contractors account for more people than the Coal industry we're hearing so much about right now. I have not got nearly enough information to say if it's a good or bad plane. But I find it extremely interesting to think that to a large degree, it doesn't matter.
- ufmace 10y ago
  I actually read that article from a link here a few days ago or so. It does seem to be the case that even without the political situation, it would be tough to cancel in that we need a new generation of fighter and it would take too long to start a new program from scratch now. I guess we have to make the best of what we have with the F-35.
- valuearb 10y ago
  These jobs aren't a benefit of the program, they are its cost. Kill it and spend the money on more cost effective and dangerous weapons such as drones. Let the allies figure it out for themselves, if they didn't skimp so much on military spending they wouldn't be so dependent on us.
  - yellowapple 10y ago
    Or better yet, move some of that money over to NASA so that I can have my Enceladus colony already.
dpatriarche 10y ago
> what exactly should be done with the program? While the US is already committed to the F-35, discussion of the plane's shortcomings is important for NATO and other allies who haven't yet signed up to buy the plane (e.g. Canada). Maybe the plane will mature into an effective platform, or maybe it will never be anything more than an expensive turkey. Right now it seems like the right thing to do is hold off making a purchase.
- bobzibub 10y ago
  I wonder how much the Trump administration's insistence that NATO allies spend the full 2% of GDP on defense is so that these planes are within budget? For the US, I'd bet the primary utility of this plane is the health of the defense complex because it is probably the last traditional major fighter program. They'll switch to fleats of networked AI "manned" drones and that will be the real prize. (Prize because it means force projection without political risk.) But one require a healthy defence industry to make these significant investments. And one requires significant expertise in a workforce in place. But the technology probably isn't there for another ten or twenty years or so for complex/flexible missions.
  - gaius 10y ago
    Prize because it means force projection without political risk This is clearly the way that things are going. Within our lifetimes the Western way of making war will be a fleet of drones endlessly circling above "enemy" territory, firing a Hellfire missile at anyone a Facebook-trained face recognition algorithm deems to be a threat. By "enemy" I mean "the entire rest of the world" of course.

by ufmace 10y ago

MegaButts 10y ago

> Do you still think it should be cancelled if that means maybe agreeing with Trump? This kind of argument is what's wrong with people voting the party line instead of voting with reason. Who the hell cares if Trump is right? Do what's right because you think it's right, not because of some petty political squabble. I do not pretend to understand how complicated such an expensive program is and what all the effects of cancelling it would be, but based on what little I know it seems like it would be a good idea to cancel the program and put the funds into something more productive.

ufmace 10y ago
I agree that things have gotten much too politicized along party lines. I'm rather bemused at how many people and organizations seem to be willing to switch sides on issues depending on which party or candidate is pushing which position. I don't think we're going to solve the problems we face by being completely for or against any party or politician. Like I said in a cousin comment, I'd be concerned about what the future would be for aircraft if we did cancel this program. I'd hope to see a plan for what we're going to do for the aircraft we need to buy and replace over the next 30 years before they moved forward with cancelling it.

EricBurnett 10y ago

I liked https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n07/daniel-soar/the-most-expensive-weapon-ever-built https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n07/daniel-soar/the-most-expensive... for its explanation of the political situation the F-35 is being built in, and the multinational ties that make it extremely difficult to cancel. TL;DR: The scope of this project (intentionally) means there are customers in 10s of countries, with most of them also contributing portions of the plans and so invested in the sales of the others. Just in the US alone contractors account for more people than the Coal industry we're hearing so much about right now. I have not got nearly enough information to say if it's a good or bad plane. But I find it extremely interesting to think that to a large degree, it doesn't matter.

ufmace 10y ago
I actually read that article from a link here a few days ago or so. It does seem to be the case that even without the political situation, it would be tough to cancel in that we need a new generation of fighter and it would take too long to start a new program from scratch now. I guess we have to make the best of what we have with the F-35.
valuearb 10y ago
These jobs aren't a benefit of the program, they are its cost. Kill it and spend the money on more cost effective and dangerous weapons such as drones. Let the allies figure it out for themselves, if they didn't skimp so much on military spending they wouldn't be so dependent on us.
- yellowapple 10y ago
  Or better yet, move some of that money over to NASA so that I can have my Enceladus colony already.

dpatriarche 10y ago

> what exactly should be done with the program? While the US is already committed to the F-35, discussion of the plane's shortcomings is important for NATO and other allies who haven't yet signed up to buy the plane (e.g. Canada). Maybe the plane will mature into an effective platform, or maybe it will never be anything more than an expensive turkey. Right now it seems like the right thing to do is hold off making a purchase.

bobzibub 10y ago
I wonder how much the Trump administration's insistence that NATO allies spend the full 2% of GDP on defense is so that these planes are within budget? For the US, I'd bet the primary utility of this plane is the health of the defense complex because it is probably the last traditional major fighter program. They'll switch to fleats of networked AI "manned" drones and that will be the real prize. (Prize because it means force projection without political risk.) But one require a healthy defence industry to make these significant investments. And one requires significant expertise in a workforce in place. But the technology probably isn't there for another ten or twenty years or so for complex/flexible missions.
- gaius 10y ago
  Prize because it means force projection without political risk This is clearly the way that things are going. Within our lifetimes the Western way of making war will be a fleet of drones endlessly circling above "enemy" territory, firing a Hellfire missile at anyone a Facebook-trained face recognition algorithm deems to be a threat. By "enemy" I mean "the entire rest of the world" of course.