4 ms·

Why I moved from Rust to simpler, cleaner C

40 points by FascinatedBox 10y ago

hawkice 10y ago
I mean, this is great, obviously. True spirit of the holiday. That being said, rustc _is_ slow.
- portmanteaufu 10y ago
  Happily, incremental compilation[1] is set to be included in the next release[2] at the end of April! [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/2369 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/2369 [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-release-milestone-predictions/4591 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-release-milestone-pre...
- Chai-T-Rex 10y ago
  See also https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294
gpm 10y ago
This appears to be a april fools joke... judging by the Repo Lily was always written in C [0]. [0] https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/tree/9ed9a706e0a1f99ff271cde132b73664e9bf3ff8 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/tree/9ed9a706e0a1f99ff... (Tree at a random commit a while back)
- i336_ 10y ago
  Yep. First commit: https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commit/1e509cbdd56ef36029c7cd30317025eeaffa47fe https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commit/1e509cbdd56ef36... Commit list at oldest page: https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commits/master?after=95b7f2a6acdffcddd0a59c804990670c26acabb6+244 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commits/master?after=9... (GH doesn't seem to have an easy way to jump around time and directly find commits. I jumped to the oldest tag, went to the commit list, clicked "older", edited the tag out of the URL then followed "older" to the start. Took around 15 clicks.)
- Mindless2112 10y ago
  Also, an issue created today "Rewrite Lily in Rust" [1]. Not sure if it's just the other half of the joke or not. [1] https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294
- FascinatedBox 10y ago
  Yeah, it's a joke. I added an issue (https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294) for extra fun.
bascule 10y ago
I can't tell if this is an April Fool's joke or not. If it is, congratulations, troll successful. But I'm going to go ahead and reply anyway... There are exactly two valid* points in this post: - rustc is slow - "the circlejerk" * i.e. not completely without merit I'll just go through these really quick: 1. rustc is slow Rust just shipped (in beta) incremental compilation, a technique commonly used by compilers to speed up recompiles: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/incremental-compilation-beta/4721 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/incremental-compilation-be... This doesn't change the fact rustc is slow, but it certainly makes the developer experience much better. Try it out! That said, rustc is still slow. A valid complaint. 2. rust needs unions Rust has two types of unions: - tagged unions a.k.a. sum types. These are preferred - #[feature(untagged_unions)]: actual C-style unions, unsafe, useful for C interop You probably want the first kind. Rust does have them! 3. linked lists are great Linked lists are great! I use them in one of the main Rust programs I'm working on. The thing about Rust linked lists is how you write one will depend entirely on your memory model. One of the best tutorials on Rust explains the language's memory model in terms of linked lists. It's a great read, a harrowing tale of "fighting rustc" until you achieve victory: http://cglab.ca/~abeinges/blah/too-many-lists/book/ http://cglab.ca/~abeinges/blah/too-many-lists/book/ I'm using immutable arena-allocated linked lists, which is a great pattern. This is in conjunction with tagged unions, and together I have an immutable sum type + list memory model for a sort of Lisp-alike VM. I did have to implement my own linked lists. The code is not terribly complicated. It'd be nice if there were standard one-size-fits-all linked lists in e.g. the "collections" module, but the type system needs a bit more work before it will be generic enough for that to be a good idea. Until then, you'll have to write your own or use a library given your unique constraints. But that's not really different from C... 4. "the circlejerk" a.k.a. the community If you dislike the community there's not a lot to say. It's probably a bad idea to use a language whose community you dislike. I personally think Rust has a great community. 5. rust's safety is overrated C programmers routinely make memory safety mistakes, even if they're experts, even if they're using static analysis tools. You don't have to use Rust to have a safe memory model... any JVM language or most other managed language runtimes will do. If you're writing a trivial C program it's possible it's safe. But it only takes one mistake for things to go from safe to catastrophic in C.
- 10y ago
starik36 10y ago
I checked out the Lily tutorial (https://fascinatedbox.github.io/lily-site/tutorial.html https://fascinatedbox.github.io/lily-site/tutorial.html) and the syntax is unusually clean. Really cool!
buzzybee 10y ago
I liked the part about the parser not benefitting from memory safety(parsers are a classic source of CVEs).
yandrypozo 10y ago
> "Every time there is a post on Hacker News or Reddit about a vulnerability in C, the strike team comes out to mention a rewrite in Rust" I thought it was only happening with Go posts, but I can see it's happening with C and C++ too, which other programming language do you know is suffering Rust attacks ??

40 points by FascinatedBox 10y ago

hawkice 10y ago

I mean, this is great, obviously. True spirit of the holiday. That being said, rustc _is_ slow.

portmanteaufu 10y ago
Happily, incremental compilation[1] is set to be included in the next release[2] at the end of April! [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/2369 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/2369 [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-release-milestone-predictions/4591 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-release-milestone-pre...
Chai-T-Rex 10y ago
See also https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294

gpm 10y ago

This appears to be a april fools joke... judging by the Repo Lily was always written in C [0]. [0] https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/tree/9ed9a706e0a1f99ff271cde132b73664e9bf3ff8 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/tree/9ed9a706e0a1f99ff... (Tree at a random commit a while back)

i336_ 10y ago
Yep. First commit: https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commit/1e509cbdd56ef36029c7cd30317025eeaffa47fe https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commit/1e509cbdd56ef36... Commit list at oldest page: https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commits/master?after=95b7f2a6acdffcddd0a59c804990670c26acabb6+244 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/commits/master?after=9... (GH doesn't seem to have an easy way to jump around time and directly find commits. I jumped to the oldest tag, went to the commit list, clicked "older", edited the tag out of the URL then followed "older" to the start. Took around 15 clicks.)
Mindless2112 10y ago
Also, an issue created today "Rewrite Lily in Rust" [1]. Not sure if it's just the other half of the joke or not. [1] https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294
FascinatedBox 10y ago
Yeah, it's a joke. I added an issue (https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294 https://github.com/FascinatedBox/lily/issues/294) for extra fun.

bascule 10y ago

I can't tell if this is an April Fool's joke or not. If it is, congratulations, troll successful. But I'm going to go ahead and reply anyway... There are exactly two valid* points in this post: - rustc is slow - "the circlejerk" * i.e. not completely without merit I'll just go through these really quick: 1. rustc is slow Rust just shipped (in beta) incremental compilation, a technique commonly used by compilers to speed up recompiles: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/incremental-compilation-beta/4721 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/incremental-compilation-be... This doesn't change the fact rustc is slow, but it certainly makes the developer experience much better. Try it out! That said, rustc is still slow. A valid complaint. 2. rust needs unions Rust has two types of unions: - tagged unions a.k.a. sum types. These are preferred - #[feature(untagged_unions)]: actual C-style unions, unsafe, useful for C interop You probably want the first kind. Rust does have them! 3. linked lists are great Linked lists are great! I use them in one of the main Rust programs I'm working on. The thing about Rust linked lists is how you write one will depend entirely on your memory model. One of the best tutorials on Rust explains the language's memory model in terms of linked lists. It's a great read, a harrowing tale of "fighting rustc" until you achieve victory: http://cglab.ca/~abeinges/blah/too-many-lists/book/ http://cglab.ca/~abeinges/blah/too-many-lists/book/ I'm using immutable arena-allocated linked lists, which is a great pattern. This is in conjunction with tagged unions, and together I have an immutable sum type + list memory model for a sort of Lisp-alike VM. I did have to implement my own linked lists. The code is not terribly complicated. It'd be nice if there were standard one-size-fits-all linked lists in e.g. the "collections" module, but the type system needs a bit more work before it will be generic enough for that to be a good idea. Until then, you'll have to write your own or use a library given your unique constraints. But that's not really different from C... 4. "the circlejerk" a.k.a. the community If you dislike the community there's not a lot to say. It's probably a bad idea to use a language whose community you dislike. I personally think Rust has a great community. 5. rust's safety is overrated C programmers routinely make memory safety mistakes, even if they're experts, even if they're using static analysis tools. You don't have to use Rust to have a safe memory model... any JVM language or most other managed language runtimes will do. If you're writing a trivial C program it's possible it's safe. But it only takes one mistake for things to go from safe to catastrophic in C.

10y ago

starik36 10y ago

I checked out the Lily tutorial (https://fascinatedbox.github.io/lily-site/tutorial.html https://fascinatedbox.github.io/lily-site/tutorial.html) and the syntax is unusually clean. Really cool!

buzzybee 10y ago

I liked the part about the parser not benefitting from memory safety(parsers are a classic source of CVEs).

yandrypozo 10y ago

> "Every time there is a post on Hacker News or Reddit about a vulnerability in C, the strike team comes out to mention a rewrite in Rust" I thought it was only happening with Go posts, but I can see it's happening with C and C++ too, which other programming language do you know is suffering Rust attacks ??