5 ms·

I'm OK in a world where nazis who are out talking about nazi things (like expelling/murdering non-white races) get punched while they're doing it. But, whether

by Frondo 10y ago

I'm OK in a world where nazis who are out talking about nazi things (like expelling/murdering non-white races) get punched while they're doing it. But, whether brave nazi punchers are out in force, these groups aren't being shut down just because they're not being invited to university campuses to give talks. The nazis have all the platform they need--they can publish their materials, go out and talk in public spaces, whatever--their speech isn't generally being suppressed. Just not welcomed in a lot of places, because most people don't actually want to hear the nazi point of view.

cyberpunk 10y ago
That enables them to do the same things though! It's a double edged sword. While I'd like the inner karma from smacking some sense into a skinhead, doing so completely prevents us from having a stand against them when they do it to whoever they decide is their version of our 'nazi'. I my point was that we shouldn't do anything above disagree with people who hold ANY views. As soon as they become criminals, or as soon as they are clearly preparing for some kind of horrible crime then THAT's the point where it's okay to step in. Forgetting the Nazis; is it okay to drop someone from a board for aligning with a politican you disagree with? Or to remove someone from a project for having a sexual kink outside the mainstream? I think it's not ok, and it's very shortsighted to think that accepting suppression like this while you agree with the current target isnt helping to progress a dangerous trend which any one of us cound find ourselves on the wrong side of someday. We're putting people in prison for having certain books these days, and it's not OK. Edit: typo
- Frondo 10y ago
  White supremacists already commit a lot of violence at minority groups--this isn't a situation where their being punched in public isn't opening the door to their actions, where before they were just publishing tracts. "Forgetting the nazis..." No-- this is very specifically about the nazis, white supremacists, fascists, and violent right-wing nationalists that have been dominating our discourse for a little while now. They're not bringing "just another political view," they're advocating genocide and white supremacy. That stuff doesn't belong in the world of "let's talk about politics" because it has, built into it, expelling/killing people. It's no longer a political discussion when you deny the humanity or right to exist of another group. (And, before you say it, I'm not denying the right of nazis to exist by approving of their getting punched--they can exist all they want, but open their mouths with nazi garbage? Fuck that, I ain't defending no nazis.)
  - cyberpunk 10y ago
    If they commit violence then they are criminals who should be dealt with by the criminal system wherever they are and regardless of their views. You're getting too into the example there, I wanted to talk about about the dismissal/shutdown of discource that's happening between any two groups that don't agree with each other, not specifically the actions of some far right groups. To respond though, I disagree. I find such views utterly disgusting (killing of anyone for belief/view/colour/sexuality/editor choice/etc) also, however it is a political discussion. These groups hold political views on what they want their bit of sand to look like and make up a percentage of their society. They have the same rights as us. There was a point where hatred of homosexuals or athiests were held with as much venom as we have against these racists groups in our recent history, we only go backwards by doing the same things as those people did. As for it not belonging in a political discussion because it's outragous? Eh? I mean, come on, expelling/killing people has been part of normal politics (as it has always been) as long as we've had history. Suppressing any view in a society creates division, and while the shoe is on the right foot at the moment this doesn't last forever.
- ams6110 10y ago
  I agree with you up to a point, but: Forgetting the Nazis; is it okay to drop someone from a board for aligning with a politican you disagree with? Yes, if politics is not within the scope of the board's charter/mission/reason for existing Or to remove someone from a project for having a sexual kink outside the mainstream? It might depend on the project and what it's trying to promote/achieve. I think it's not ok, and it's very shortsighted to think that accepting suppression like this while you agree with the current target isnt helping to progress a dangerous trend which any one of us cound find ourselves on the wrong side of someday. Nobody should be obligated to provide a forum at their expense to promote ideas that they disagree with. There are places where this is allowed (the proverbial "town square") and we've also as a society defined some rules about antidiscrimination in public accomodations but that doesn't in any way confer an unlimited obligation to host and disseminate propaganda.
krapp 10y ago
> I'm OK in a world where nazis who are out talking about nazi things (like expelling/murdering non-white races) get punched while they're doing it. That's just assault, though. There's nothing heroic about meeting mere ideas with violence, however repugnant those ideas are. You can buy the Turner Diaries and Mein Kampf on Amazon, the ideas are cheap and plentiful, and often not worth a second glance. When they actually try putting their ideas into action, with the force of violence, then punch them.
- cyberpunk 10y ago
  > "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins." People are free to dismiss and ignore those with other views than theirs, but what happens when we can't even discuss things anymore? Today it seems you're on one side or the other and the response to someone who disagrees is just a wall of abuse and dismissal. We're all going more into our own silos. Am I the only one worried about this? Everyone should be allowed the same range of stages for their views but we're not really balanced at the moment. Did you watch the dismission by a lot of remain voters/press in the UK during the EU ref? The rhetoric was that those who wanted to leave are all bigoted racist small minded 'little englanders'. This kind of thing just makes both sides more extreme. I'm not sure what we can do about it. So much hate seems to be around.
  - zo1 10y ago
    I think we're passed the golden age when it comes to free speech. A certain very left-leaning, anti-male, anti-traditional, anti-rich, anti-white, pro-immigration viewpoint has won. It dominates academic, media and public spheres. And those that question or disagree with it are very quickly attacked with a number of smears/names/slurs, etc. Some of the views that get attacked are genuinely okay. Perhaps the not most likable of ideas, but certainly not the type of hatred that they're portrayed as. The tragedy is that we're not allowing individuals to hold these opinions. E.g. Maintaining national culture/race/identity. A people should be allowed to want this without having every single talking-head of the media party assaulting them for wanting it. Unfortunately, it's a consequence of Democracy that forces opposing groups to occupy the same piece of land, instead of allowing like-minded groups to self-aggregate and group together.

by Frondo 10y ago

cyberpunk 10y ago

That enables them to do the same things though! It's a double edged sword. While I'd like the inner karma from smacking some sense into a skinhead, doing so completely prevents us from having a stand against them when they do it to whoever they decide is their version of our 'nazi'. I my point was that we shouldn't do anything above disagree with people who hold ANY views. As soon as they become criminals, or as soon as they are clearly preparing for some kind of horrible crime then THAT's the point where it's okay to step in. Forgetting the Nazis; is it okay to drop someone from a board for aligning with a politican you disagree with? Or to remove someone from a project for having a sexual kink outside the mainstream? I think it's not ok, and it's very shortsighted to think that accepting suppression like this while you agree with the current target isnt helping to progress a dangerous trend which any one of us cound find ourselves on the wrong side of someday. We're putting people in prison for having certain books these days, and it's not OK. Edit: typo

Frondo 10y ago
White supremacists already commit a lot of violence at minority groups--this isn't a situation where their being punched in public isn't opening the door to their actions, where before they were just publishing tracts. "Forgetting the nazis..." No-- this is very specifically about the nazis, white supremacists, fascists, and violent right-wing nationalists that have been dominating our discourse for a little while now. They're not bringing "just another political view," they're advocating genocide and white supremacy. That stuff doesn't belong in the world of "let's talk about politics" because it has, built into it, expelling/killing people. It's no longer a political discussion when you deny the humanity or right to exist of another group. (And, before you say it, I'm not denying the right of nazis to exist by approving of their getting punched--they can exist all they want, but open their mouths with nazi garbage? Fuck that, I ain't defending no nazis.)
- cyberpunk 10y ago
  If they commit violence then they are criminals who should be dealt with by the criminal system wherever they are and regardless of their views. You're getting too into the example there, I wanted to talk about about the dismissal/shutdown of discource that's happening between any two groups that don't agree with each other, not specifically the actions of some far right groups. To respond though, I disagree. I find such views utterly disgusting (killing of anyone for belief/view/colour/sexuality/editor choice/etc) also, however it is a political discussion. These groups hold political views on what they want their bit of sand to look like and make up a percentage of their society. They have the same rights as us. There was a point where hatred of homosexuals or athiests were held with as much venom as we have against these racists groups in our recent history, we only go backwards by doing the same things as those people did. As for it not belonging in a political discussion because it's outragous? Eh? I mean, come on, expelling/killing people has been part of normal politics (as it has always been) as long as we've had history. Suppressing any view in a society creates division, and while the shoe is on the right foot at the moment this doesn't last forever.
ams6110 10y ago
I agree with you up to a point, but: Forgetting the Nazis; is it okay to drop someone from a board for aligning with a politican you disagree with? Yes, if politics is not within the scope of the board's charter/mission/reason for existing Or to remove someone from a project for having a sexual kink outside the mainstream? It might depend on the project and what it's trying to promote/achieve. I think it's not ok, and it's very shortsighted to think that accepting suppression like this while you agree with the current target isnt helping to progress a dangerous trend which any one of us cound find ourselves on the wrong side of someday. Nobody should be obligated to provide a forum at their expense to promote ideas that they disagree with. There are places where this is allowed (the proverbial "town square") and we've also as a society defined some rules about antidiscrimination in public accomodations but that doesn't in any way confer an unlimited obligation to host and disseminate propaganda.

krapp 10y ago

> I'm OK in a world where nazis who are out talking about nazi things (like expelling/murdering non-white races) get punched while they're doing it. That's just assault, though. There's nothing heroic about meeting mere ideas with violence, however repugnant those ideas are. You can buy the Turner Diaries and Mein Kampf on Amazon, the ideas are cheap and plentiful, and often not worth a second glance. When they actually try putting their ideas into action, with the force of violence, then punch them.

cyberpunk 10y ago
> "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins." People are free to dismiss and ignore those with other views than theirs, but what happens when we can't even discuss things anymore? Today it seems you're on one side or the other and the response to someone who disagrees is just a wall of abuse and dismissal. We're all going more into our own silos. Am I the only one worried about this? Everyone should be allowed the same range of stages for their views but we're not really balanced at the moment. Did you watch the dismission by a lot of remain voters/press in the UK during the EU ref? The rhetoric was that those who wanted to leave are all bigoted racist small minded 'little englanders'. This kind of thing just makes both sides more extreme. I'm not sure what we can do about it. So much hate seems to be around.
- zo1 10y ago
  I think we're passed the golden age when it comes to free speech. A certain very left-leaning, anti-male, anti-traditional, anti-rich, anti-white, pro-immigration viewpoint has won. It dominates academic, media and public spheres. And those that question or disagree with it are very quickly attacked with a number of smears/names/slurs, etc. Some of the views that get attacked are genuinely okay. Perhaps the not most likable of ideas, but certainly not the type of hatred that they're portrayed as. The tragedy is that we're not allowing individuals to hold these opinions. E.g. Maintaining national culture/race/identity. A people should be allowed to want this without having every single talking-head of the media party assaulting them for wanting it. Unfortunately, it's a consequence of Democracy that forces opposing groups to occupy the same piece of land, instead of allowing like-minded groups to self-aggregate and group together.